Fly Fishing

AvidDavid

Alright, I know that I’m not the best flyfisherman ever; but, I do expect that I should be able to catch a few fish every now and then. I have a problem that is bugging the heck out of me.

Three days ago, on November 12, 2006, I went fishing for Stripers on the north shore of Long Island with my friend, Jeff. We were wading a beach area with a rock strewn sandy bottom. Weather was overcast, deteriorating to rain by 9:00 am. Wind was initially calm, increasing to 10-15 knots as the morning progressed. Jeff started out with a flyrod and within 5 minutes, he had caught a nice 18 inch striper using an olive-over-white clouser. After about another half hour, he switched to spinning gear and later to surfcasting gear. He caught another 3 fish (one was a keeper), all of them within 25 feet of him.

Now here’s what is bothering me. In the summer of 2005, I began my attempts at saltwater flyfishing, having several years of familiarity with nymph and dry fly experience in streams. On my first attempt, I caught a 16 inch striper. Since then (about 8-10 sessions over two summers, I have caught no stripers (none, zilch, zippo). At first, I thought that it could be explained by not being where the fish are (since I was fishing alone). But yesterday, I was right there with my friend, Jeff. He was catching fish and I wasn’t. I had a great day and enjoyed snapping pictures of his fish, but…. What am I doing wrong?

I know you can’t tell without seeing me do the wrong things. But, I have been reading this site, and watching videos, doing my best to glean tips from everything that I see and read. Let me start with some general information about conditions and what I was doing. Jeff and I fished within 20 yards of each other all morning and I believe that there were no significant differences in structure or cover of our microenvironments. It was a blind fishing situation with no fish busting the surface and no indications of fish presence. Water was pretty clear, probably with 3-5 feet of visibility. For about two thirds of the morning we were casting along a rocky point/jetty. The tide was falling from about one hour after high tide at sun “up” and had fallen significantly (about 4 feet) by mid morning. The water depth was around 5-6 feet sloping up to dry land.

I used three different line types: floating at first, switching to fast sink and finishing with intermediate sink. I was throwing clousers and deceivers until at the desperate end I threw a spoonfly. I was able to cast about 40-50 feet into the wind, casting primarily perpendicular to the shoreline. During the retrieve, I keep my tip near or under the surface of the water and the fly rod is in line with my fly line. My retrieve may be a problem. I strip about 6 inches to 18 inches of line in with each retrieve. When I use the fast sink line, I can feel the bottom (a very reassuring feel to someone who spent years fishing rubber worms to largemouth bass in the dead of August). In addition, I hook up with the bottom rather frequently so I know that the fly is on the bottom. When I use the floating line or the intermediate sink line, I don’t feel much of anything. This makes me feel like I have no contact with the fly. Each time that I have gone out, I have detected no fish action, no takes. Logically, I believe that I will feel it if a striper takes my fly, even without the fast sink line. Aren’t striper takes pretty aggressive?

I believe that the problem is either that I have not enticed any fish to take my flies or I have not noticed it when fish did take the flies. Could it be a conditions problem (river vs. beach) – or – a technique problem (nymph/dry fly vs. streamer)?

Earlier this summer, Jeremy posted a question about his nymph fishing and several people responded with suggestions (Did the comments help, Jeremy?). It was an interesting forum, nonetheless. Since most of this year’s fishing is now history (other than steelheads), vicarious fishing via Flies and Fins is the only show in town! Perhaps I can get some help with my problem from some of the striper experts here on our site (or even from those of you who don’t consider yourselves experts).

(For 30 years, I wasn’t able to catch fish with an indicator/nymph rig… then I hired a guide who put me on the fish and made me realize that I really could do it. The main change was a change in my confidence.)

My enjoyment of the fishery within one mile of my home would be greatly enhanced by catching a few fish (or at least noticing a few takes, even if I miss the hook set) and I don’t want to wait another 30 years to gain proficiency with streamers and stripers. I think that I just need some help to achieve an “Aha!” moment. I hope that any comments will not only help me but also may serve to help others who may face a similar situation. Help!

Marcel_Karssies · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:02 am Post subject:

Since I am "striperless" and live on the other side of the pond I might be not of great help but I have fished the beaches of Southwest Florida and Southeast Florida.

On the beach I always used floating- or intermediate lines.
The sinking stuff was kept for fishing locations that where deep or had extremely strong flows like rivermouths and passes.

I thought too that stripers where pretty agressive and would travel to take a fly so an intermediate should in principle work on the beach.
On the beach I always had sussces with Enrico Puglisi flies in Olive/White and Purple/Black.
What I remember about beach fishing was that you had to look for the fish thus making long walks, scan the surface of the water for signs and off course look for diving birds.

Sometimes a change in pattern / size can do wonders.
When in Denmark this spring my buddy was catching one fish after the other while I had no fish interaction, I was standing almost next to him.
When he gave me his orange shrimp pattern he fished it took only 5 minutes before I had a fish on, go figure.

Try the intermediate, other flies, sizechange etc. first.
To bad you are located so far away otherwise I would come over and fish at your spot Very Happy

AvidDavid · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject:

Marcel:

Thanks for the help. By the way, it's not so important that I catch stripers (they are just the main "target" left around here now), so I really appreciate your suggestions.

Jeff and I were both throwing olive over white clousers for some of the time. Although there may have been subtle differences in the ties (his home made: mine store-bought) he caught and I didn't.

I appreciate the concept of adjusting to what the fish want; but I never seem to get into the groove of what the fish want. I certainly seem to have a lot of experience with what the fish don't want! So I suppose that you could bring me along fishing and save time learning what isn't working!

And what do you do when there are no signs of fish busting or birds diving. In this case, the walking that you suggest, would have been a very long walk, probably very good for my health, but I believe that my line would never have seen the water.

My friend, Jeff, also suggested that I should not use the fast sink (since I was snagging the bottom so much).... but I got the impression from ?Joey - @F&F east? that he routinely creeps his flies along the bottom and enjoys Striper success.

I did hear an interesting commentary about sinking lines from the guide that I had in Lousiana. He said that he thinks that sinking lines stir up the bottom and that the fish (in his case, redfish) get all exciting about the stirred up bottom (and any food that might get stirred up) so they don't have any interest in the fly that is trailing behind the sinking line. Maybe that's an important realization... to avoid disturbing the bottom with anything other than the streamer! or maybe not at all!

You also bring up another interesting issue "Matching the Hatch" in saltwater. You indicated that on one occasion, when you switched to a shrimp imitation, you hooked up very soon. At this time of year, near the end of striper presence in the Northeast, there is also a migration of baitfish away from their usual summer hangouts. But don't the crustaceans and less mobile foodsources tend to stay put? Maybe a crab or shrimp imitation would have been a good idea.

Anyone else?

Marcel_Karssies · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject:

Since you are so "avid" Cool

in dregdging the Atlantic I would suggest you put a creasefly on your tippet.
I know it is a surface fly but I used that technique with quite some succses in Florida.
Imagine your fly moving just above the bottom, I think the Stripers must hit that fly.

The crease fly on full sinkingline idea came to me when I thought about the troutfishing with booby flies in Lake Oostvoorne near Rotterdam.
It is a technique used often in that lake, take a floating fly and fish it on a sinking line so it hovers just over the bottom.
It works on Trout, it works on Snook so it should work on Stripers.

When I walk along the beach and see no fish I probe parts where the bottom makeup changes, throughs, weedlines and so on.
Those fish are hiding somewhere....

jeremy · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: avid

avid ... i was exactly where you are until i met some truly hard core fly fisherman here in maine several years ago .... here is how it transpired in a nutshell ...

1. i thought i knew the striper game and how to fly fish for them .. i would go out fly fishing in rhode island or wherever and on a good day catch 3 or 4 ...

2. i moved to maine and showed up to some spots with my intermediate line and some decievers and got my BUTT KICKED by guys who are now great friends ....

3. day after day i would show up on the striper flats with intermediate line and decievers, clousers etc....and stand RIGHT NEXT to mike and dave ... (as a sidebar .. dave is an old timer .. fly only ... striper legend here on the southern maine flats ... these days he has a tough time walking ... and i still see him in his green subaru watching me and mike and others through his binoculars .. but he has a tough time these days actually walking around .. never mind wading through the flats or walking the ledges .. but, as long as i live .. out of respect .. i will always give credit to my knowledge of striper fly fishing to "old man dave" ... and if any other long time local striper guys here in southern maine are reading this ... (mike, louie, frank, steve, bill-e, mark-m, etc ....) i know for certain that they would agree .. that "old man dave" is deserving of being recognized as a striper fly fishing legend here in southern maine and personally responsible for helping 100's of guys like me dial into the striper game ...

4. no joke ... dave would catch 30 stripers and i would catch none. i would move closer .. borrow a fly ... all sorts of stuff .. and then one day i said, "dave, please help me .. i have no clue what the story is .."

5. as dave continue to hook fish after fish he said, "you need sinking line .. and not the nonsense extensions you need rio 300 grain sinking line... go up to llbean's and get that and come back."

6. so, i ran up to llbean's and came back ... i stood next to dave and cast out ... fish on! ... my cast was terrible .. as i had to learn how to cast 300 grain sinking line .. and a guy bruce taugh me how to double haul ... and from that day ... i have never turned back ... i rarely fish anything but integrated sinking lines .. and i have become proficient at double haul casting these lines .. and it is pretty easty to throw a ton of line in with NO false casting once you get the hang of it and really excercise the double haul efficiently ...

BOTTOM LINE: I used to measure striper catches (especially schoolies) in the single digits .. and since meeting and fishing with these guys .. it is common to have 20-60 fish days .. and a group of us had something like a 450 fish weekend on the flats in rhode island ... ALL of using the integrated sinking lines ... Try this .. and I bet you will have the same experience I did ...

1. Get a stripping basket
2. Get some Black clousers
3. Get Orvis Wonderline 200-300 grain depth charge wonderline, or sci angler's version or rio's version
4. throw away the taperd striper leaders and just run 5 feet of 12 pound fluorcarbon fromt he fly line
5. tie on the black clouser
6. go stand next to your friend who is cathing fish or go somewhere where you know the stripers are
7. cast to the best of your ability .. but remember with the sinking line .. there is NO false casting .. lay the line on the water .. haul on the back cast .. load the rod .. haul the line on the forward cast and if you do it right .. the line shoot seriously shoot out of your stripping basket and pull line off your reel .. you will be amazed how far you can cast using the line, the water and the rod and momentum/timing to your advantage and NOT false casting ..
8. so .. just get your fly out there as best you can .. now here comes the key part! LET THE LINE SINK!!! count to 5 or whatever.
9. strip shor 3 inch strips quick but not crazy fast .. you should feel the clouser ticking on the bottom.
10. you will catch stripers if they are there .. no doubt about it.

ps.. i don't know why .. but i have seen guys try all shorts of short cuts to the integrated sinking lines .. but they don't work as effectively .. i think because they hinge or whatever .. point being .. get the depth charge line of which i speak .. don't do any stuff like cutting it back or anything like that ... and definately don't make the mistake of thinking that adding extensions to floating or intermediate line will achieve the same results . it won't .. and i know that any striper guys from maine out there reading this .. will agree with me ... if you don't feel free to set me straight or augment/modify what i am saying .. but, all i know .. is that this setup is what all fo the best striper fly fishermen in maine that i meet and fish with use ..... ... --- so, hope you can try it down in long island .. and tell us if it works out for you .. i just got a report that the striper fly fishing in rhode island is STILL very good .,. so its' gotta still be good in NY .. so, go give it a shot and let us know if it works .... i'll bet ya a quarter it does!

AvidDavid · Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:50 am Post subject:

Jeremy:

Thanks for the response. I always enjoy your analysis, largely because I know that you are constantly analyzing and word has it, that your analyses have often led to great successes. I am particulary pleased that you related an "Aha!" moment in your striper fishing education.

It is interesting that I have received two different perspectives, from beach fishermen on opposite sides of the North Atlantic, that are to some degree diametrically opposed. Oh well, I guess that's the nature of fishing. I value both responses and thank both of you guys for taking the time to try to help me out.

Oh, and Jeremy, as for the bet, you're on. I see your quarter and raise you one surf candy fly (I owe you one anyway).

Dave

Marcel_Karssies · Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:43 am Post subject:

But more importantly, have you been to the beach yet to test
either theory ?

From your story I figured you would be living on the coast right
so I am eagerly waiting for test results.
If dredging black clousers on the beach works that well as Jeremy
put it I will have to make a note for when I will fish for Stripers
first time.

jeremy · Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: i like this ...

i don't claim to know it all .. and in the end .. its all a gamble and if i were a betting man, which i am, i would bet the farm on full sink 300 grain line and a black clouser ... so, i too am curious as to the results of this test ....

let us know your how the theories pan out in the real world .. will be fun .. marcel .. seems as though your getting out of this easy though .. i was willing to bet a quarter ... avid raised my guarter with a surf candy ... and you haven't thrown anything into the pot ... you gotta at least gamble something .. and if flies are the chips ... how bout a nice ep tarpon fly .. i know you must have a few of those .. and one of those would look real nice in my box. Very Happy

Marcel_Karssies · Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:31 am Post subject:

I am betting a quarter (still got a few) and a certified Tarpon catching EP fly that the Crease fly on full sinker will also work Smile

I know the black clouser is good though, I did do well with that pattern in Florida on both fresh and saltwater.
And believe it or not, the black clouser was the fly that produced my first searun brown or seatrout as we call them down here.

I know you get around Jeremy but I was surprised that you had not gotten a Tarpon yet, you should visit Marsh and/or Diamond Dave asap.
They can help Cool

AvidDavid · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject:

Marcel and Jeremy:

OK, so here's the deal. I'm hoping to get our tomorrow midday from high tide through the first 1/2 to 3/4 of the drop. I will fish rocky beach along Long Island Sound. I will tie on two leaders, each about 5 feet long. One with a black clouser and one with a crease fly.

Shall we decide that the first fish is the winner? or shall we decide that the most fish is the winner? Of course, somehow, I manage to be the winner only if I am a total loser and catch NO fish... does this seem fair? It will be pretty easy to prove if I catch fish, but how do I prove that I catch NO fish? Oh well, I guess that you will have to trust me. Afterall, fisherman are known for their honesty.

Now for the payout. If I do not catch fish, then each of you owes me a quarter and the specified fly. If I do catch fish, then if the crease fly is the winner, I owe Marcel one quarter plus a Tarpon EP fly. If the clouser is the winner, then I owe Jeremy a quarter plus a surf candy fly. Do Marcel and Jeremy owe flies and quarters to each other? We should resolve this prior to divulging the results.

Any side bets?

I need to get back to my Sunday chores so that I can go tomorrow!

Marcel_Karssies · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject:

Since you told us about your history of catching no fish it seems only logical to conclude that you can't loose this contest and thus ending up with
two certified fish catching flies and two quarters.

Maybe we could make this more interesting by measuring the results
over three outings so the results are more scientific.
If you get no fish during these three outings than we both owe you the
quarters and the flies.

In the unlikely case you get a fish than you keep the fish and either
Jeremy or I will lose a quarter and a fly.

If you catch fish on both flies you will have to invite us for a fishing trip
on Long Island Cool

AvidDavid · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:28 am Post subject:

So now for the big letdown. This morning, I woke up and my daughter is sick, staying home from school...so no fishing for me today. (See Jeremy's list of "whatever" comments/excuses #6,#9 and then #7.) This was probably my last chance.

Given my schedule for the next few weeks, I'm guessing that this whole thing is going to have to happen next season. Probably best done under "sure thing" conditions, anyway (note the rationalization!).

It sucks, that we can't resolve it now... but, I won't forget. And the whole thing is set in steel in the archives! Talk about a thread killer!!!!

Dave

PS: Marcel, in 8 days I am flying through Amsterdam on business. Unfortunately it's only a 3 hour layover. Probably enough time to get through security for the next flight, but I'll be thinking of you, pike, perch, and seatrout.

PPS: Come to think of it, I'm probably flying over Portland on my way to Amsterdam, so, I'll wave to you Jeremy, unless you're in Pulaski.

Linesidesonthefly · Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:37 am Post subject:

I think Jeremy has given you great information. Probably the best advice I could add is to remember to use your sweetwater knowledge and apply it to the salt. Purchase and read books authored by Lou Tabory.

I use an integrated sink tip shooting head line like Jeremy. Probably 95% of the time I'm on the water. The fish you want are on the bottom.

The areas I often fish can be described as food funnels. Stripers will set up in a position that utilizes the movement of the tide to their advantage. Moving water necessatates a sinking line. Adding weight to the leader or using weighted flies is a must.

O.K. so your at what you believe is the perfect spot. Now what do you do? I'd tie on a Clouser tied sparse, unlike the over dressed commercial fly shop Clousers. Cast it out and start counting. Basically you are giving the fly a chance to get to the bottom based upon the sink rating of the line you are using. The sooner you get caught on bottom the better. The next cast after getting hung up I'll start stripping just prior to the point at which the fly got hung up on the prior cast. You are now in the zone. The rate at which the fly needs to be stripped is next and thats basically trial and error. Once I get that nailed down its all over for the Stripers.

AvidDavid · Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject:

Linesides:

Thanks for adding your thoughts on the striper situation. I was hoping to hear from you, since your name seems to clue us in to your devotion to stripers. Didn't you give Jeremy a big pollock fly that he used to catch a giant within the last year?

With your integrated line, clearly the head is sinking but is the running portion intermediate or floating?

I'm using an Airflow 8.5 inch per sec sinking shooting head (~30 feet) with 30# Airflo miracle braid running line. Do you think that this will perform the same as your integrated line?

Am I right that when stripers take the fly, it is anything but subtle? So if I stay in contact with my fly, I'll know it when the striper hits, right? I'm trying to decide whether I have not had any takes or whether I have missed detecting the takes over the past two summers.

Thanks,

Dave

Linesidesonthefly · Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject:

AvidDavid · Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject:

Although, I can't say that the strip set is my automatic reflex just yet, I am familiar with it, having strip set several rocks and weeds this past summer. Recently, I enjoyed the power rush of strip setting a good size redfish. It gave me the impression of direct hand to hand combat with the fish on the other end of the line... a feeling that I would like to duplicate often! Thanks for your help.

Linesidesonthefly · Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:28 am Post subject:

AvidDavid · Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:38 am Post subject:

Linesides:

I use about 6 feet of 10 lb fluorocarbon, just 1 level untapered piece looped to the end of my fly line.

Now for stripping... I usually strip one handed, about 1 foot sections, maybe one strip every 1-2 seconds. I usually feel the bottom as I strip. My experience has been predominantly with beach that doesn't have much flow (Long Island Sound, at the western end, seldom has much serious wave action unless it's blowin hard). Sometimes there is a tidal lateral flow, parallel to the beach, usually quite slow. But with no waves, there are no significant rips.

It sounds like you try to stay as close to the bottom as you can get without making contact with the bottom. Am I right? With a fast sink line, I suppose that that means you may have to retrieve pretty fast. So do you double hand retrieve? Or is it really more a matter of, depending on conditions, whatever it takes to stay just above the bottom.

I hope to target some locations with more flow, soon. There are some tidal marsh areas on my penninsula with narrow mouths opening into the sound or bays off of the sound. I'm guessing that this time of year with the water temperature getting down near 50 degrees, that the fish may like the warmer water that will flow out of these shallow, muddy bottomed areas after a sunny day as it is funnelled through the mouth of the inlet about midtide on an outgoing tide. Now, to get to the point... With this situation, I anticipate that there will be more flow and hence the fast sink line will be even more necessary to get down to the bottom. In this situation, I may actually be able to swing streamers without any significant retrieve. Is this the kind of situation that you look for and fish and is this how you would approach it? (By the way, thanks for your patience with me.)

Linesidesonthefly · Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject:

You are right on track. Try some Enrico P-Nut Butter flies. They are a great immitation of Baby (P-Nut) Bunker.

AvidDavid · Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject:

Well, I tried again on Nov 26, three days after Thankgiving. I went out with the fast sink shooting head and two 5 foot long 10 pound fluorocarbon leaders, one with a black clouser and the other with a green over silver crease fly. I positioned myself at the mouth of a tidal creek that runs directly into Long Island Sound. I began just before high tide at 3:00 pm and fished through 5:00 pm with a significant outflow during the falling tide.

There were some large rocks nearby, so I focussed on these while waiting for the tide to begin to flow out. There was little wind and most of the time there were no significant waves. At one point there was a 10 minute period of 1-2 foot swells that made wading thigh-deep a little challenging. Water temperature was about 50-51 degrees F.

Between dusk and sunset, as the tide went out, there was a huge 100 yard long riffle outside of the mouth of the creek where the outflow from the creek was clearly disturbed with little peaked upwellings, small wavepeaks. Water depth varied from 1.5 feet to about 3 feet deep as this riffle went further offshore. This place seemed as fishy as anywhere I have fished on the sound. I was surprized at how shallow it was but, this had to be an ideal spot. I even suspect that the outflow water was a little warmer since during the rising tide and high tide the sun was out warming the water back up in the slow moving, shallow creek/marsh.

I caught nothing. My fast sink shooting head was a little too heavy to swing flies as it sat on the bottom without carrying the fly downstream on the swing. I only had to untie knots between the two leaders about 4 - 5 times throughout the session.

Marcel and Jeremy, I suspect that this shouldn't count as a real test, since I had no control group at my side catching fish. But it is one time out and I feel a little more like I was in the right place. There was no obvious dropoff or shelf, just pebbly bottom that gradually increased in depth as it got further from shore. I tried to focus on the edge of the riffles and on the end of the riffles (where riffles became smoother water (probably became 4-5 feet deep near here). I felt like I had my own private rip that just kept on running for about 1 hour. The surface was disturbed, (hence I call it a riffle), but there was no cloudiness like I expect along a sandy beach. Does this sound like the right place to be?

The sunset was beautiful and as the sun set, I got a little cold as the air temp dropped from high 50's to around 50. I will try to return in the spring/summer when I suspect there might be more fish around. I see no online reports of activity now and the few days of colder weather that we had earlier this week may have encouraged migration? Oh well, tomorrow is my flight to Amstedam and beyond. Maybe I'll post something from far eastern Europe.

Linsides, Marcel, Jeremy, thanks for the help. At least we have some concrete ideas set in digital "stone" for others to consider. Next summer can't be as slow. I think that I have paid my dues.

AvidDavid