Fly Fishing

Shaq · Location: Adirondacks

OK, A little back-ground to this weeks rambling...And this one is a true rambling...sorry guys, no "How to" here. Last week I learned some things about the steelhead experience. Maybe it will be of value to you and maybe not. I headed to the river with a mission and a mindset of catching a steelhead on the swing with my spey rod. I have been having my best year so far with the swung fly, namely because I have actually been swinging flies for entire trips. In the past, if things seemed like they weren't going to happen, I would abandon my plans and by noon, be bouncing weight on the bottom or indicator fishig with glo-bugs, I would hook fish and feel pretty good about myself. This year, I have not done that as much. That's not to say that I haven't bounced lead, or used indicators, sometimes the conditions were just so harsh or crowded that I was forced to, yet every time I wished I had stuck with the swing. So here I was, on a dirty trib stubbornly throwing my brightly colored marabou speys into the muddy currents and looking for that one player steelhead with no dice. My buddy and I then hit the bigger river and while it was clear enough, the lower river was raging and angry. Still I swung those bright flies with the belief that if a player steelhead saw it, he would hit it. Totally ignoring the dark day dark fly theory, I just knew that my orange and pink fly was going to work. Also ignoring the "Guys in the know" who sat in flyshops saying 40 degree water temp, steelhead no chase swung fly. I ran through all the bright flies in the box to no avail. OK, 2 pm, no fish. I did not switch. I charged on, heck it was 2 pm and I hadn't hooked a fish. Maybe it wasn't going to happen this day, and wow, I'm cool with that...5 years ago, maybe I wouldn't be so cool with that but now I swing flies with a spey rod...and that in itself is cool. 4 oclock, and the last spot of the day. I finally find what I am looking for. In this high water fall, seldom does the water type measure up to perfect conditions. Traditional holding water loses definition, seams become so defined that a sink tip cannot penetrate the heavy flow and get low enough to effectively fish the seam so you constantly mend line to slow the fly down. Slack water is so slack that the heavy sink tips used to gain depth in the rollers drop like stones and slack up. But here, in the last spot of the day is a "walking speed" steelhead tail-out. I look in the box, see all the bright flies and grab a jet black marabou streamer. I start through the run and cast, swing, step down to the tail-out. I follow my line with the tip in a trance like state and start to think about the ride home. Should I try an indicator through here? Nope, what's the point. Might as well head up the hill and down the thruway, this ain't gonna happen....The line tightens...I look at my reel, It's spinning...what the heck is happening here? A steelhead takes to the air 60 feet below me and I lift the rod...This exchange maybe took 6 seconds but the fight was on! After this long day, had I finally figured something out? I don't know. After landing the fish, See the "REDEMPTION" thread for photo, I have thought about this for the entire week, I mean what else am I gonna do while at work? These are the questions I have been racking my brain with...

Was it the fly? Had I changed to a dark black fly earlier, would I have caught more fish? Does the color or shade really matter or is it the act of a swung fly?

Was it the water? Is the walking speed tailout, even in high water better for a swung fly than the hard seam of fast to slack water? Should I have been looking for more water like this instead of searching out the inside bend pools?

Did I finally find the one player steelhead of the day? Would I have caught that fish on any fly? at any depth? With any technique?

Or did the stars align perfectly where I had the right fly, right water, right depth and right steelhead?

And what do I do when I hit the water this weekend? Start with the bright again? The dark fly? In the seams or in the tailouts? The water is going down? DOes that blank the playing field and I have to start again?

Do I even care. Is it enough to say I caught a steelhead on the swing and don't know why? I know when the water is high, I can go down to this spot and get good swings but do I really want to pigeon hole myself to one spot at this flow? Do I want to be "That Guy" who goes to a spot "Because I caught a steelhead there once"? Why, in the course of learning a new technique, especially one that works once in a while do I feel like I know less and less every time I hook a steelhead on the swing?

These are questions which may have no answers and I will have fun trying to answer them.

Here are some facts which you may here in the flyshops around the great lakes and I intend to test them this year.

1. 40 degrees is the cuttoff for swinging flies: Water is 43 degrees and I caught a steelhead on the swing...It's getting close and we are going to charge forward.

2. Bright day Bright fly, Dark Day, Dark FLy: We have one day/one fish of proof for this one...gladly need more testing

3. Small flies for salmon river steelhead: If you consider a 4 inch marabou tube fly small...then I guess it's true.

4. Steelhead and salmon won't chase flies and hit once in the river: Ummm No.

5. Small tippets, 6 and 4 pound test for steelhead. I have been using 15 maxima for swinging flies and with the force of the strikes I have been getting, it's a good thing.

Well, ramblings over for now...See you on the water...Oh ya, I told you I learned something about the steelhead experience...I lied...Im more lost than ever.

jeremy · Location: Portland, Maine

shaq - great ramble .. i respect your personal swing objectives and am very curious to your findings throughout the winter months ... here are some thoughts ..

1. what about when temps are low and ice builds on line or guides? having all that line out could pose a problem .. no?

2. i think you can prove the theories wrong about the swung fly ... why? well, i too would love to fish a swung fly and get the same hook up ratio as i do with dead drifting egg or nymph or streamer patterns ... but i am not personally willing to put in the time that you are on the water testing it ... but one observation that always sticks in my mind is this ...WHAT ABOUT THE DRIFT BOATS PLUGGING? .. i have watched them in the dead of winter .. back troll through a run and light it up .. so .. my theory is .. boil down all the distractions and the bottom line is .. whether single handed rod or double handed rod or spin rod or pin rod or trolling plugs ... the fact seems to be ... the steelhead will hammer anything that sits in their face and pisses them off ... so, my theory was .. if using a streamer/spey fly whatever ... if the angler could get enough hang time in the zone ... so, let's say a very slow swing .. than it should work with equal effectiveness as the drift boat with plugs? curious to your thoughts on that... but more curious to see the results and your findings and recommendations for others who may want to swing and beat the odds and nay sayers ... cuz, i think you are gonna figure out the puzzle ..

3. here is an observation from most recent trip .. we were fishing whippas egg pattern .. now when that pattern gets in the water it is NOT a typical glow bug .. infact it has movement .. and when swung it actually looks like a mini streamer pattern ... so, for 2 years now .. i have been "teaching" fisherboy how to steelhead fish ... and constantly saying "dead drift only .. forget about the swing .. don't even fish it" .. but guess who proved me wrong this past trip ... i watched fisherboy fish with an indicator according to our tried and true method of cast way up get a nice drag free dead drift for as long as possible .. and the goall is to keep that drag free drift going as long as possible and keep the drag free fly in the zone as long as possible ... fisherboy WAS doing that .. but at the end of the drift when i was considering it "over" .. he naturally couldn't resist to swing it for whatever reason ... and low and behold .. MOST of his fish took on the swing ... he hooked alot of steelhead and started to find his own method for tricking the steelhead .. and i gotta be honest .. i was impressed by the end results and certainly learned that its NOT all about the dead drift and fisherboy proved to me that the swing is deadly ... your thoughts??????

Shaq · Location: Adirondacks

Jeremy, I can always count on you to make the short answer long...haha...

My short answer is I don't know, I don't know, I don't know!!!! Here is what I think...

#1 I think it will be less of a problem because when I fish the run, I pull enough the line out to fish and that is what I fish with. The thing with the spey cast is that I may have 60 feet of line out but that is what I start with and cast. No pulling the line through the guides every cast. so I don't think ice will be a deciding factor.

#2 I also have seen the pluggers light it up a winter run. Even when they don't hook-up I have seen them turn on a run and when they leave, someone hooks a fish. so the plugs definitely excite the fish no-question. I think the motion and rattle and flash of the plug is the concert to excite the fish. In a swung fly we can incorporate motion and flash but not rattle but 2 out of 3 won't be bad I think. Last year I was working the 81 hole with a white and pink marabou spey. I had taken one small skipper in the pockets above and I was swinging and stepping and feeling pretty good about myself. A drift boat came down and plugged the hole in front of me which I thought was pretty bad on there point as I was obviously working the pool, then he took a dime bright chromer from a spot I had been eyeing from way up river...I always wondered if I would have hooked that fish instead if the plugger hadn't...hmmmm. I ended up taking a Skamania drop-back out of the tail of the pool but it wasn't the big chromer which ended up in the guide's cooler...To be continued on that aspect....no doubt, the plugs are deadly.

#3 When I used to bounce the bottom, I always swung my fly after the drift. I took most of my steelies this way...I had an arsenal of flies that would be best for this. Egg sucking leeches being the crown jewel of this. When you dead drift them, they are eggs with wooly buggers....swing them on the end and they are woolly buggers with eggs on them...a subtle but good distinction. I tend to use the flies with movement for this "Conversion technique" Bottom bouncing and swinging. There is no doubt that steelhead respond to swung flies whether out of curiosity or territoriality or hunger. I think there is a triggering response to the swung fly where the fly may be getting away, and this triggers a response. With a traditional egg pattern I believe this may be un-natural but with a fly that gives some motion and therefore the illusion of life, a little swing at the end is definitely not a bad thing for sure.

Lastly I think you look at the reasons I swing the fly a bit differently than the way it's intended to. While I like to hook steelhead....no LOVE to hook steelhead as much as anybody, the act of swinging a fly is a conscious decision to hook LESS steelhead in a better (in my opinion) manner. This leads to comments like "I like to hook 1 fish on the swing rather than 10 on nymphs". Well, sometimes it seems like that is the ratio. I have come to fish steelhead along a long and windy road so to speak. When I first came to the Salmon River area in college, I came with blatant snaggers. This was how I was taught and I ripped my fair share of fish and enjoyed every minute of it. I had never seen, felt or experienced anything like it. Then one day, the river was slow and we rented fly rods from Whitakers and headed to the fly zone to hook some salmon and wow, we hooked them in the mouth!!! Well, we went out and bought fly rods and proceeded to hook fish and get good at it but...we were lifting fish. Lifting fish is basically snagging in the mouth because hey, these fish won't hit. For years, I am convinced that I lifted 80% of the fish I caught in the great lakes tribs and I got REAL good at it. I could look at a fish, it's orientation in the current, look at a fellow "Fisher" say, "Watch this" and take one cast, hook the fish in the mouth...Then I started to purposely not do this. I used larger flies, took less fish but still many and came with a selection of flies that were other than the black stone fly. I then started to fish egg suckers and the like. After college I guided Alaska and definitely got an education on salmon fishing. I brought these techniques back to the Great Lakes and started to hook fish on swung flies with single handers and under indicators. Now I have made another leap into the world of the spey rod. I swing flies with sink tips and look for fish that actually have to MOVE for a fly. I get all juiced up for this because I spent many years hitting fish in the face with flies. Has my hook-up ratio changed? Absolutely. My hook to land ratio has also changed in fact when I hook up on the swing, on 15 lb test on a big streamer, I have landed 15 out of 16 steelhead this year, I haven't been able to say that in 15 years f fishing great lakes tribs, It's usually 3-10 or so. So yes, I take less fish over the day. I enjoy the fishing more and more and every fish I hook I want to know why and appreciate it more. I don't put any type of fishing down...accept the guy who is lifting, knows he's lifting and tries to hide the fact that he is lifting. They know who they are and probably are not reading this with any interest anyways because these fish don't hit right?

You like to compare fishing and music...I like to compare swinging flies and bow hunting. In bow hunting the hunter takes more practice, more study, more care and levels the playing field far more than is necessary to complete the task of shooting a deer. If the end result was just to shoot a deer, the bow hunter would go out and get a gun and shoot a deer...but the bow hunter is out for a far different experience than just shooting a deer. They scheme, they pattern, they practice and they may get one or 2 shots off a season. They pass up lesser deer, dozens of bucks may pass their stands 5 years ago they would have shot every one but now, they know there is a trophy out there and they let 4's 6;s and small 8's pass within range unharmed. The spey fisherman may show their fly to 20 steelhead before that one player hits. They may have been able to catch 4 or 5 of them with an egg but the tug of a hot fish on a 4 inch marabou spey is so addicting to the psyche that I am willing to forgo those fish for a chance at the giant tug. That is what I am looking for, not a "Same ratio as the egg" But I drive 2.5 hours to steelhead, 2-3 times a month. Not everyone has that opportunity, some have it better than me. I don't expect everyone to get to the swinging flies stage. We are all out there for different things. I have found what I am out there for, and am enjoying it very much. Take it for what it's worth....A guy I know and respect once told me about swinging flies "I have taken so many beautiful fish out of this river over the years, I am just happy being out here...And if I happen to take a fish on the swing...well, now I know what heaven feels like".

jeremy · Location: Portland, Maine

and there is the crux of it all .. it boils down to personal preferences ...

me, personally, i swing so many flies to salmon and trout and stripers in rivers all season here in maine with sinking lines and sink tips everything from floating, intermediate, 100 grain to 500 grain to lead core lines and all sorts of streamer patterns big and small and various materials and colors ... it doesn't do a thing for me ... and infact it often bores me.... the same is said for dry flies ... many rivers here in maine are conducive to showing up and productively fishing dry flies all day long until it becomes a bore ... seriously, i don't know about other places .. but there are many places i fish here in maine where its dry fly all day from sun up until sun down and other methods simply don't work as well ... so, for me, just as swinging flies is what excites you ... nymphing excites me ... and i often jones for the times in maine or anywhere else when i can catch fish on nymphs with indicator setups, czech nymphing, or various high sticking styles ....

for example .. i went out west to fish with jason ... all the guys out there were amped up because it was a window of time in the season where dry fly fishing was "great" and for them a nice break from the nymphing that they do so often and well .... i am not kidding, i showed up to the green river and had no desire to cast dry flies and catch trout on hoppers or what not ... i fished an indicator setup right through the rising fish and had a blast catching fish on wd40's, disco midges and all that crazy stuff they use out there ..

bottom line i personally often find myself bored silly with dry flies and swinging streamers and nymphing ... all of it gets boring ... so i view things as neither this nor that .. and a well rounded mix of all of it .. and no one method is any harder or easier or more respectable than another for me ... just, at different times, one is less boring than another ... but after a long winter in maine and a winter full of nymphing for steelhead .. i will be ready to put on my sinking lines and streamer flies and swing flies to fish that ... there is no doubt will eat .. and in the spring here in maine ... the salmon and brook trout certainly eat swung smelt patterns ... so much so .. that i will be praying for late mid-late june just to do something else other than swinging streamers .. and the circle continues ,..

so ...... good luck swinging the streamers for the steelhead .... and hopefully you can discover some tips and tactics for me to use if i decide to use that method for steelhead now and then ... but, for me, i get the same satisfaction you get from swinging by dead drifting nymphs with very little weight and learning all that goes on below the surface and constantly learning new spots/runs/rivers/tribs that hold steelhead ...

ps. one final note .. i personally don't like sight fishing for steelhead ... and all of the steelhead i catch absolutely eat my fly .. unfortunately some actually inhale the fly ... and if a fish is ever fowl hooked or lined (hooked from inside out) i feel terrible and no pic gets taken and the fish is not "counted" ... i enjoy fishing dead drifts in slow seems with very little weight and getting the steelhead to eat my fly .. and i know they are eating my flies because the flies are often in the back of the mouth or on the tongue of the fish .. so there is no way on earth that a hook placement like that could ever be a result of "lining" ... so, i don't think you were implying that "other" methods outside of swinging are lining fish .. becasue that i would argue to the 'nth degree .. and that would be, in my opinion, bad information .. because that is simply not true .. but, i don't think that is what you were implying .... however, i would argue that many of the fish i see hooked with running line and bottom bouncing technique and small black stoneflies are "lined" .. not all ... but a good percentage ... ... a tell tell sign is always the hook placement .. if it is outside/in .. there is a good chance it was lined ...

Shaq · Location: Adirondacks

on the ps: Not at all what I meant and as you know, I also like to fish under the indicator as well. WHat I meant is the guy who is TRYING to line fish...is being unethical but you knew that I am sure. NO doubt that when the steelies are on eggs that the indicator IS the most productive way to get them and if I had a 5.5 hour trip to get to the river that is the way I would spend the bulk of my fishing time doing. I would also argue that 90% of the people lining fish know exactly what they are doing as that is what I did and I knew. So this year I am 80% swing and 20% indicator and hopefully conditions will allow me to continue that ratio as it is what I am happiest doing.

I am lucky enough to live in a place that no matter what I feel like doing, I can find fishing for it depending on which direction I decide to head out the door. within 3 hours of where I live I can dry, nymph, swing, pop, strip or dapple flies for countless fish that nonew of it ever seems to bore me... Smile

jeremy · Location: Portland, Maine

agreed .. cool ... we are on the same page .... good luck in your swinging endeavors ... and i hope to learn alot from your research and development .. keep us posted and keep the ramblings coming ... great info..

AvidDavid · Location: Long Island, NY

Gentlemen:

I am really enjoying the ramblings. I have been avidly reading everything posted on F&F and its subsidiaries for the past year. I am trying to learn as much as I can about fishing flies in ways that I haven't already been successful and the whole F&F philosophy is wonderful for me. But this recent devotion on Shaq's part has opened a whole new world that I find equally intriguing.

Much of the fishtales is exciting but often reduces down to chest beating (I'm quite guilty of this too). On my part it seems to be an attempt to share my joy at one of my meager successes with some of my e-friends. For others we learn a little about what happened and the goals achieved during the day's outing... sort of "this is what I did and this is what happened."

Now with the "ramblings" I'm getting to feel much more connected to Shaq, since I am now getting to read more of his philosophy, his thought patterns and his motivations.... more about WHY he does what he does. I sense a great deal of honest reflection and willingness to reveal his inner feelings. (Sometimes we manly men have trouble getting in touch with our sensitive sides.) But I am really enjoying this whole rambling thing. I guess its a little like a good book that has action and character development. The character development gives a very rich sense to the book and I believe the richness revealed in these ramblings, represents a new level of maturity for fliesandfins.com, perhaps a level never anticipated in the beginning. But I think that we are all amazed at some of the interesting unanticipated results of this online, vicarious, fishing site that started with a few guys with a common interest and developed into this mega site with something approaching 2000 members! Keep it up. I'll bet that I'm not the only one enjoying it!

Shaq · Location: Adirondacks

you make me blush AD...

Are you saying I am not a "Manly man"? Haha. Thanks vey much, and I agree that with you about this site and think that this is the only one I would feel comfortable enough writing about this stuff too. I consider all you my e-friends as well and after the phone calls on the way home from fishing, I can't wait to get home and tell you guys about it. And when we get together or run into each other on the stream, well it just confirms that we are all out there actually fishing, not like some other sites it seems. It's the only one that gives a sense of "We are all learning here" no matter what our experiences are. Everyone knows I can chest pound with the best of 'em and have done my fair share of it. There is also one thing about spey fishing in the GL's that I feel I can contribute, the fact that it's so new. I only have 3 years under my belt and have made a lifetime of mistakes so if I can help somebody out and keep the mistakes to a minimum, well, I feel good about that. Tomorrow, I will be fishing...you will all know how I do...Hopefully I will have something to pump my fist and pound my chest about...Thanks again to all my e-friends.

AvidDavid · Location: Long Island, NY

To the contrary, Shaq, I was using the inclusive "We" rather than the royal "We" in my statement about Manly Men. Yes, it was my intention to include you in the "we" about Manly Men. And there was no typo... I did not mean "wee" manly men.