Fly Fishing

jeremy

I hear these terms thrown around all the time ... so much so sometimes, that I start throwing them around too .. and do I even know what I am saying? And, to what degree does it really matter? Looking to clarify these things .. because each classification has pereceived significance by many .. and by many others, no significance at all ... Correct Me here if I am wrong ..

Native Fish: No human intervention, ever. No stocking at any time in history. So, a good example would be the Mako Shark. Native to anywhere they rome because unless I am mistaken there is no such thing as a "Mako Shark stocking program" .. So, you catch a Mako .. it's native. Right?

Wild Fish: Human intervention at some point in history. Take any river anywhere with NO Brown trout. Stock it for 10 years. Stop stocking it and catch a fish 30 years later .. It's wild. Gotta be, because any of the "original stocked fish" would be dead due to old age. Right?

Stocked Fish: Pretty obvious. The stocking truck comes by and dumps a bunch of fish in the river. I get in the water after the stocking truck pulls out and cast to the fish they just dumped in. I catch one, it's stocked. Right?

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Ok so if I am on track up there .. is is true that ..

1. No such thing as a native brown trout anywhere in the world but germany?

2. Everybody makes a big fuss about wild delaware river brown trout .. Are they all wild? Is it no longer stocked? If i catch a delaware river brown .. is it definately a wild fish?

3. Stocked fish probably make up the majority of fish that people are actually fishing for worldwide? I wonder what percentage of total fish caught every year are native, wild and stocked?

4. Another "big" term is is "holdover" .. ya hear alot of guys throw around this sentence .. "dude, there are some big hold overs!" ... why does that mean something? what does it imply? how long can fish "hold over?"

5. Seems that all of this classification applies primarily to freshwater species .. and all saltwater species of fish are Native .. because I don't think Florida is stocking Bonefish, Tarpon and Snook?? Are they?

6. So, from what I have gathered just from spending time with lots of Freshwater (specifically trout/salmon) fly fisherman in all different regions is this .. there seems to be a somehwat common but unsaid hierarchy when it comes to "classifying" trout and salmon .. and it seems to go something like this ..

- Native Fish
- Wild Fish
- Stocked Hold Over
- Stocked

Why? When did this start? How many folks feel this way or even think this way and to what degree?

One final question that remains .. is there such thing as a Native Rainbow trout? .. If the only TRUE native brown trout would reside in germany, where are rainbow trout native too? .. are there infact native brown trout still in existance in germany?

Curious to here peoples takes on this because ya here alot of stuff like .

"I want to catch a wild BC steelhead" or "Those wild delware browns are tough to trick" or "It's the only place left in the world to catch a Native golden trout" .. you get my point ... what does this stuff mean to you? and why?

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

Your definitions are good.

I can't comment on browns, other than to say they're not native to North America, but because of the sea run fisheries in Europe I think it would be a stretch to say browns are only native to Germany. They may have been extirpated at some from much of Europe through man's "better" judgement, but I'd bet they swam in more than Germany once upon a time. Rainbows are native to the Pacific half of the N.America.

The Delaware has hatcheries. The Willewomec has a state hatchery upstream from Livingston Manor, though I'm sure the system produces a lot of nice wild fish too.

Holdover- a stocked fish that has made it through the winter. Easier said than done in most places fish are stocked (at least in Maine). Between angling pressure, natural predation, poor winter habitat, etc... being a stocked fish is tough, especially in a moving water situation where both flows and chemistry fluctuate dramatically this time of year.

There are saltwater stocking programs. CCA has been working a redfish hatchery for some time on the gulf coast. Stripers are the product of a massive stock enhancement effort from the late 70's through late 80's. Shad benefit from several hatcheries as well (including the Waldoboro Shad Hatchery operated by Sam Chapman a little to your north). If you consider Atlantic salmon a saltwater fish- most of the US runs are hatchery born (though from wild grown parents).

Wild fish are just special. The conservation mindset drives this thought. Read "Wilderness and the American Mind" by Roderick Frazier Nash for more on that thought process. We, the manicured product of civilization need to believe there's still something wild about nature. Naturally produced fish are an extension of that IMO. Wanting to catch a "native" is the expression of the search for that wilderness character, and more and more, with fewer places left to achieve that- the ones left become all the more valuable.

Of course, opinions vary on the importance of that, but I'm all for wild/native fish.

jeremy · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: Wow

Wow. Very well articulated, Hunter. Thank you. It is obvious that you are very knowledgable on the topics of which you speak. Amazing to me that you even know about the specifics of the Delaware River hatchery programs and other such things on the "Science/Biology/Management" side of things. The "problem" with many guys who become very knowledgable at such things in our sport, is that they often become so knowledgable that to some degree they lose the ability to communicate with the common fly fisher (like me) and speak to the common fly fisher (like me) within a simpler context but at on equally meaningful plane as they do with their more knowledgable "Science/Biology/Management" orientated peers. I think that the sport of fly fishng and everyones ojectives and interests are enhanced ten fold when all of the different types of folks can communicate and be "on the same" page to the degree that each individual can and wants to. I believe that communication and common understanding amongst the various layers and types of fly fisherman will be critical to the preservation of our sport and the very things that we are all ultimately trying to conserve within the capacity and context each of us can do and is willing to do.

Thanks Hunter.

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

I only know about the Delaware because I lived in Roscoe (actually Cooks Falls) for most of a fishing season (splitting time with the Holiday Inn in Liberty) while working on the NYC water supply dams. But that's a whole other story.

The Delaware is a tremendous resource, both in terms of the fishery and what it has done for the local economy and area culture. Maine could learn a bit from those riverside communities (well, what's left of them after the floods).

But in general, I speak fish.

jeremy · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Ok

Ok So ... for discussion sake .. let's just say that a fly fisherman was only interested in pursuing these types of trout and salmon but only wanted to pursue Natives fish. Where in the world could he do this?

Brown Trout
Rainbow Trout
Brook Trout
Atlantic Salmon
Steelhead

Now what if his friend was interested in pursuing only the same group of trout and salmon .. but he only wanted to pursue Wild fish? Where in the world could he do this?

Brown Trout
Rainbow Trout
Brook Trout
Atlantic Salmon
Steelhead

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Let me take a stab here ..

Native Brown Trout - I don't know
Wild Brown Trout - Lot's of places ?

Native Rainbow Trout - Alaska?, not sure of anywhere else?
Wild Rainbow Trout - Lot's of places?

Native Brook Trout - Maine, not sure of anywhere else?
Wild Brook Trout - Lot's of places?

Native Atlantic Salmon - Canada, Iceland, Russia?
Wild Atlantic Salmon - Maine? Canada, Iceland, Russia?

So, you see .. there are lot's of gaps .. and many questions arise .. when I go out west and fish the bighorn .. am i catching native, wild or stockie rainbows and browns? Can I cat native brook trout in other states or just wild ones? Atlantic Salmon .. If I really wanted a Native atlantic salmon and was willing to go the distance and pay the money to go to Gaspe Canada .. are those fish Native? or Wild? .. I know i am opening a big can of worms here ... but getting any better understanding here would be better than the kind of "guessing" and speculating that only leads to confusion and the original reason for posting this forum post ... i don't mind all the throwing around of "native" and "wild" and "hold over" and all those terms .. i would just like to know a bit more of the facts and the truth when i hear the term thrown around and if i use it myself .. thanks.

PeteD · Newbie Joined: Oct 11, 2004 Posts: 10

I'm thinking native fish are those that (I'm not religous) god intended to swim in a given body of water. Wild fish are those that were placed there but are able to sustain themselves through natural reproduction. Stocked fish are of the 'put and take' variety with a few lucky fish that could hold over until they become a meal for some predator or just kick the bucket.

Your comment about brown trout only being native to Germany has my interest peaked. There are so many rivers and streams with a searun strain of brown trout. Places where they can only survive the low warm water of summer by escaping it in the salt. Were all those little stream at one time stocked with brown trout from Europe. Seems so unlikely... Definately an interesting topic...

Where's Whip when you need him? Get better soon buddie. Almost time for a little field research on the D.

jeremy · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: PeteD

Interesting you should mention whip. I asked him the other night about Brown Trout .. and ya know what he told me? He said that basically "everywhere" the Germans went they BROUGHT their trout with them and put them in the rivers and streams and lakes. Now, that is some serious Trout addiction. I can't tell you the specifics, more than that, but according to whip the Germans were very partial to their trout. It is interesting to look at the trout/salmon fisheries here in the united states and without getting too complext about it .. kind of saying, "what the heck is going on here?" .. where are brown trout native too? and rainbow trout? and brook trout? .. and are there any actual native ones that remain? .. then that breeds the question about wild trout .. and then the irony is .. a "simple" question .. get pretty complex, quick.

PS. Oh ya one more thing .. from what i have gathered about "Sea Run Brown Trout" .. at least from my research here in Maine .. is that they do not travel the open seas like atlantic salmon ... they stay relatively close to the rivers that they were born in ... so, i have always thought that a sea run brown trout really doesn't "run" anywhere .. it stays within let's say a 50 mile radius of the river mouth .. now, i could be dead wrong .. but that is what i have been thinking all along .. maybe hunter knows? .... and what about the sea run brown trout in canada and argentina? i don't know .. but, i don't think they are highly migratory fish like atlantic salmon ... and what about steelhead on the pacific coast? ... how "ocean going" are they??? i can't envision them traveling the distances to different contentants and such??? but, i could be wrong?

so .. anyone know how far a "sea run brown" or a "sea run steelhead" .. actually "run" in the ocean? i know they go sometimes 1,000 + miles UP RIVER .. but how far do they tend to travel at sea?

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

My understanding of sea run browns is that they generally don't swim very far away from shore. They may follow the shoreline, but generally don't go more than a mile or two out. On the other hand steelhead are like Atlantics, and swim long distances to their summer feeding grounds.

Here's a good overview of brown trout. I believe we've got the von Behr strain here in Maine. It would be nice to obtain some of the Loch Leven variety if the brown program is going to continue.

http://www.canadianangling.com/page.php?8