Fly Fishing

jeremy

Wow! I just read greg's chat post about Maine having opening the Penobscott River for the spring run of Atlantic Salmon. I know and am very appreciative of the many efforts that the state of Maine and fly fisherman in the state of Maine have gone through to protect this resource. I also know that my knowledge of "the stats" and "the rules and regulations" is very limited. With that said, I have never caught an Atlantic Salmon (I suppose you could consider Landlocked Salmon a strain of Atlantic Salmon, but I am referring to a true Ocean going Atlantic Salmon) and it is a fish that I would be honored to catch .. especially since the Salmo Salar (Atlantic Salmon) is closely associated with the very roots of fishing with flies. So, speaking in the humblest of ways and on behalf of the many "plain old fly fishers" like me who don't know all of the "in's and out's" of the Maine Atlantic Salmon .. I was wondering if some folks who do know much more than me about "The Current State Of The Maine Atlantic Salmon" could help me. I am a believer in the saying "The only dumb question is the one not asked." So, here are some "dumb" questions.

1. Is the Penobscot River the only river that we get runs of Atlantic Salmon?

2. Why is the Penobscot River significant to the Atlantic Salmon?

3. What kind of numbers of Atlantic Salmon are we talking about?

4. Are the numbers getting better year over year?

5. Is this the "first" time in how many years that the spring run has been open?

6. When does the spring run start and end?

7. What are the rules? When can I start fishing for them? Can I fish for them all season or is there an ending date too? Is it fly only? Are there only specific stretches of river that I can fish? Can I nymph or must I swing flies? Floating line only? Are there unsaid rotational protocals to follow? What can I not do? Do I need a special permit or license? Etc..

8. These Atlantic Salmon are so prized, why? (I know why to some degree in my gut, but maybe others could tell the significance.. and why the Atlantic Salmon means so much to the state of Maine? And why so many go to great lengths to protect the Maine Atlantic Salmon? Why is it such a special fish in Maine and worlwide?)

9. Double handed rods and spey flies make sense right? The Penobscot is a huge river and I could be wrong but I believe that spey fishing is closely correlated to The Atlantic Salmon?

Bottom Line: It would really be a dream of mine to catch my first Atlantic Salmon in The State of Maine and not have to go to Canada. Don't get me wrong, I would love to visit Canada and fish the world renouned waters of Gaspe etc, for the "king of fish" ... but, if I could do it in my home state of Maine, that would mean something to me. And, if my sons, could someday also catch an Atlantic Salmon in the state they were born in ... that would mean something to me and hopefully them.

Thanks in advance for any help and insight.

PS. What kind of spey setup would I want to use? Floating lines? Sink tips (or not allowed?) Any recommendations on spey flies to tie or buy or steel from Greg's fly box?

Pzulick · Newbie Joined: Aug 29, 2006 Posts: 11

Jeremy, there are a few rivers that get runs of salmon in Maine. The Penobscot happens to have the largest run, and is one of the few rivers I believe where the salmon are not on the ESA list.

You're in Portland, if you're interested in learning a bit more, give the people at the Saco river Salmon club a call. I know they do tours of their facility, and they so quite a bit of work stocking locally. I ran into a couple of their guys last summer when they were stocking fry in the Ossipee in Kezar falls.

http://www.sacosalmon.org/

it appears their website is down, but there it is anyway.

as to your questions, yes, you need a special permit.

I'm not sure of the season, but it's catch and release, can't even remove them from the water. One 50 fish have been released, they're closing the season. I believe this is the second year they've opened the river since the closure, but this is the first that they've done a spring season.

Here's an article.

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=174085&ac=PHnws

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

Here's my take:

1) No- we get salmon returns in most of the larger rivers, and a few of the smaller ones as well but not in any significance.

2) The Penobscot is currently the largest run in the state. Not that it's large, just that it accounts for more than the returns from all the rest of the Maine rivers in any one year.

3) Last year the trap at Veazie counted 994 (give or take a couple) fish. Of those, 546 (give or take a couple) were taken to Craig brook for broodstock. During the "hey day" of the late 70's/early 80's they numbered around 4000 or so per year. But that decline has happened across the board in many rivers.

4) No.

5) The river was closed below Veazie to the Eddington bend in the mid 90's (1995?) to protect what few returns they were getting. There has been a fall season the last two years, but that was traded for the spring fishery this year.

6) The trap opens when they can get out to tend it safely. Usually around mid May. The local knowledge says the fish don't start going upriver generally until May 15th ish anyway. This year- I doubt the river will be fishable until very late May from shore as we've got a LOT of water to loose from the snowpack. I'm betting the flows are back into the trees until after the 20th. The fishery runs May 1st to May 31st.

7) FFO only, single barbless hook and no removing fish from the water (even for a quick photo), though the IF&W rulebook leaves the door open for a Zebco trailing a red and white daredevil with a night crawler on (for other species). I've also been told no weighted flies (per the old DMR rules) but haven't read that officially anywhere. You'd stand a good chance of being shot by one of the locals for nymphing. You'll need a special salmon stamp ($15) and plan on paying attention to the pool rotation or you'll get stoned (literally). The fishery is from Veazie dam to the top of the old Bangor Dam (Bangor Water Works). The Bangor pool is closed to salmon fishing.

Cool

When you hook one you'll know...

9) The Penobscot is made for spey fishing (if you don't own a boat).

10) Think bright flies for the stained water (and big).

Personally, though I've fished the fall season, I can't justify fishing for a fish that's all but listed endangered before the brood stock collection goals are met. I'll be fishing elsewhere but hope the folks that do fish it have fun and I'm sure I'll swing down to watch the show at some point. Hanging around the salmon club scene is entertaining.

jeremy · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: Huh?

Hey thanks guys. Now we are talking in "simple" terms I can understand. So, can you answer this for me?

1. These are all stocked fish?

2. If stocked .. what makes them "special" .. I thought these were native? and/or wild? Doesn't Connecticut and NH have stocked Atlantic Salmon too? I know several friends who catch those fish somewhat regularly but but, at the end of the day .. they are stocked fish and I was under the assumption that the Maine Atlantic Salmon were Native?

3. Greg tells me that up in Gaspe Canada the fish are Native/Wild .. and that when "stocked" ones enter that system they are killed almost immediately .. because I guess people don't like the Stocked fish competing with the Native fish?

4. Am I off the mark here --- Are the fish in Gaspe, Nova Scotia etc .. wild or native?

5. What percentage of our fish that return are native, If any? Wild, if any?

Again - I don't claim to be an Atlantic Salmon expert .. so these questions may sound dumb to those who are much much more informed about this species of fish than me. I guess what I am saying is that I understand why Maine's NATIVE brook trout is respected and protected and appreciated world wide .. I thought our Atlantic Salmon were as such?

Is there such a thing as Native Atlantic Salmon in Maine, Canada, Iceland, England etc... or is "Wild" (having reproduced after being stocked) the closest to "Native"? ..

Thanks.

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

Too many questions Cool

The Penobscot has been stocked for over a hundred years, since the run started to decline as dams and pollution took their toll. During that time a lot of different things have been tried, but the big one is happening now- taking the meat grinders out and getting better upstream passage. In the mean time, the feds/ASC run a hatchery were they collect Penobscot fish from the trap at Veazie for broodstock. Eggs are stripped and used to supply both the Penobscot restoration efforts, and Kennebec, and Saco, and the state programs to our south (including NH and MA). Without that- none of those runs would exist. I believe NH and MA are looking at (if they haven't already) starting to collect their own broodstock because if the Penobscot fish become listed they won't receive eggs anymore. However, not all Penobscot fish are from the fry stockings- up to 10% are considered wild in any given year. Basically, the Penobscot "program" is very similar to the GLS (or Salmon river) hatchery in that it's a put and grow effort. The difference being the Penobscot program is labeled as a restoration effort for a species on the brink of extinction in the US. There are those that claim it's a put and grow fishery- I disagree. If it were a put and grow fishery the restoration effort would end and their would be no fish for the future. Ultimately, the Penobscot dam removal project will allow better migration (both upstream and down) which will hopefully increase the run to naturally sustainable levels.

Genetics are a big deal with salmon management and "hatchery fish" are frowned upon in rivers with wild populations- especially escapees from the local fish farms. That's a whole other topic. There are many "native" runs to the north, but we've muddled with ours enough to cause damage (yet, surprisingly enough, the experts claim there are enough genetic differences between our downeast rivers to warrant ESA protection). We even tried stocking Chinooks and steelhead for a period in several of our rivers with little success beyond the initial plantings.

jeremy · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Hmm

Interesting.

Boz · Newbie Joined: Oct 16, 2005 Posts: 61 Location: Portland

Hunter

If all of the rivers in Maine are 100% dependent on stocking then that would lead me to believe that Native Atlantic Salmon (in Maine) are already extinct?

I personally would love to see Atlantics thrive in Maine again some day, but as long as those dams stand in the way we will never see this fishery recover. Current stocking programs just seem to be in place to give folks a tiny glimmer of hope...

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

Boz-

They're not 100% dependent on stocking. A report issued a while back indicated that despite all the stocking that's been done, the genetics of the native fish doing their thing in the wild have stayed, indicating some level of natural success. The current "river specific" stocking is a stop gap measure to keep runs from completely failing.

There are other issues as well- such as the effect of acid rain leaching heavy metals such as aluminum out of the soil, screwing up the ability of anadromous fish to transition from fresh to salt water. Even with cleaning up the atmospheric pollution, wetlands act as a bank- releasing atmospheric pollutants long after the pollution has stopped. Plus, we've added predators such as bass, chain pickerel and perch to most of those systems. And clearcut around a lot of the headwater streams, eliminating cool water refuge. And driven logs downstream, scouring the river beds of adequate spawning gravel and depositing it on the river banks.

There are some highlights too- the Sandy river is having some success in getting returns back (the first to swim in that river for over 150 years). Paul Christman (ASC/Bureau of Sea Run Fisheries biologist) worked with TU to do a streamside rearing experiment. The results to date from 39,000 eggs have been a 6 genetically confirmed returns so far (possibly more, but the geneticists only count the definitive ones), with a possibility of a few more MSW fish next year. That's about 3 times higher than the returns predicted by Ed Baum from data collected downeast. They're experimenting with an egg planting method to make "natural" redds with an artificial egg planter. I helped plant 200,000 eggs last November (when the river was making ice). There's a lot of good work being done.

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

One other thing- the DownEast Salmon Federation is holding their annual smelt fry on the 11th. I'm thinking of making the trip over. It'll be worth the ride if only to get out of the house after this winter, but I may fish my way over in search of salters.

JOIN US FOR OUR 2008 ANNUAL SMELT FRY AND POTLUCK

Friday, April 11th, Columbia Falls Town Office
(With live music and a bounce house for the kids)

Spring will soon be here and so will the smelts. We hope that you will join us for our 2008 Annual Smelt Fry and Potluck on April 11th (beginning at 5:00) at the Columbia Falls Town Office / Community Hall and under the DSF Big Tent. There is a suggested donation of $3 per person or $10 per family and please bring a dish for the potluck if you can. The smelts are donated by local fishermen and deep fried to perfection by our volunteers! This year we will be showcasing the winners of the 2008 student art contest and will have a 50/50 raffle held hourly, allowing plenty of time for guests, staff, DSF volunteers and board members to socialize - and tell fish stories.

This is a great event to celebrate the work of DSF, our partners and the community Downeast. This year we will be honoring David Whitney of Marshfield for his support of salmon conservation, river recreation and his dedication to the sustainability of the natural resource based economy of Washington County.

DSF will also have maps and materials available about our latest land conservation project. This $75,000 campaign is intended to help us purchase and steward a prime 50 acre parcel of land (the Patterson Lot) with one mile of river frontage located in Twp 24 on the Pleasant River above the Great Heath. This property includes a deeded right of way (across 8 miles of posted private lands) allowing 4WD access to this extraordinary section of wild river for canoeists, anglers and others. The Patterson Lot is home to a very significant brook trout fishery and very important Atlantic salmon habitat. DSF/DRLT considers this a must do project! The property has been offered to DSF at a bargain sale price.

Our Pleasant River Hatchery is currently in operation and a new research lab/hatchery has been set up to evaluate the effects of pesticides and acid rain on the Pleasant River. The facility will be open for public tours from 4-5 PM the day of the Smelt Fry. For more info on any of the above - including scheduling a personalized or group tour- please contact:

Dwayne, Tracy or Jacob @

Downeast Salmon Federation / Downeast Rivers Land Trust
PO Box 201
Columbia Falls, ME 04623
(207) 483-4336 Fax: 483-6057
info@mainesalmonrivers.org

Boz · Newbie Joined: Oct 16, 2005 Posts: 61 Location: Portland

Hunter,

So out of the 900 plus fish that returned last year, do we know how many are "the real deal" Native fish?

I realize there are other issues threatening these fish besides the dams. But removing them is the first big step in the right direction in my eyes...

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

I'm not sure how often they take genetics samples to figure out origin, but know the broodstock fish are sampled and the lineage of fish can be traced between generations. I'm told the figures on wild fish vary between 2 and 10% right now, but (and this is a big but) the current return numbers preclude many fish from spawning naturally as the majority of the Penobscot fish (roughly 2/3rds) are taken for broodstock to ensure a viable spawn. That only leaves a few hundred to make it up stream and do their thing successfully. I don't know the number, but would guess native, wild Atlantic salmon comprise less than 200 adult fish in the whole state. Sad.

Studies have shown that mortality on outmigration is close to 30% at EACH dam the fish pass through. So right now- we're loosing a large percentage of whatever swims downstream. The Penobscot project is a good start to removing that mortality, but it's going to need to be combined with some cover species (river herring) restoration work to further protect those smolts. I fully expect we'll see better returns within 10 to 15 years post dam removal, but there's a lot of ground to cover between now and then.

PeteD · Newbie Joined: Oct 11, 2004 Posts: 10

In my opinion even stocked fish are native if they were taken from the same strain of salmon returning naturally to a river. Some of surplus eggs are used in other rivers and can't say I would consider them native. If those fish can beat the odds by surviving as fry, parr, smolt and returning after a winter or two at sea then how can you not consider them wild? They are not transplants like the fish in the great lakes... Just because they were reared in a hatchery? I'd go as far as saying that I consider all Atlantic Salmon (not from salmon farms) swimming in the Atlantic Ocean, coastal rivers and bays wild fish. Can't say I even care if they are native to the rivers they are now calling home. As long as they can make it back and are driven by the desire to reproduce.

I've never heard anyone talk about wild versus native versus stocked salmon in Canada. Not sure why but I'll ask around. Maybe because the vast majority of the fish (trout/bass) they catch are native/wild. Stocked fisheries are the exception rather than the rule unlike so many places in the states. Maybe that's why we get hung up on it. We're bothered by the fact that it's not necessarily the real deal at the end of our lines. I'm guessing the 'stocked' fish Greg was refering to were actually escapees from Salmon Farms. It's a hottly contested issue... I don't know much about it but they say when pens are kept to close to migratory route they can infect wild fish through parisites carried in their waste. Also, escapees will join up with wild salmon and follow them into their home waters. They will compete with males over milting rights. Not sure if farm salmon know how to seal the deal with the ladies... But I know we definately wouldn't want their genes mixed up with otherwise wild strains.

Even without man involved some salmon were finding there way into different rivers and streams where they weren't necessarily native. Probably a good thing in many cases to spice up the gene pool a bit. To figure out what % of fish are native would be a huge waste of time and money. And the results would be useless in my opinion. There are far more unanswered questions than answers regarding issues effecting atlantic salmon. They can closely guesstimate how many smolt are making it to sea. Think they are fairly good at guesstimating returns. Certianly can guess age and study genetics as needed. Seems like their work in Greenland is paying off in regards to commercial salmon fishing. Obviously removing dams and stabilizing PH is key. But what about the unexplained at sea mortality rate. It is the biggest missing link and know of no major study in the works. Anyone know if this is something we'll soon be hearing about?

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

There's a lot of work being done locally looking at the transition from fresh to salt. The aluminum I mentioned earlier is thought to exchange with the calcium on a fishes gill causing problems with keeping the right amount of fresh water in the blood when they migrate into the salt. It also causes problems with their ability to breath in freshwater, negatively effecting growth rates, etc... (it's not the acid in acid rain that kills fish- it's the aluminum brought into solution to neutralize the acids that suffocates fish). I'm heading out next week to sample a couple of pond outlets for an EPA funded project here in the northeast. One of them is fishless because of the chemistry- too acidic with elevated aluminum levels (one of the streams I used in my thesis feeds this pond).

One project that the Conte lab is running with folks from UMaine is a telemetry study of smolts as they migrate out into the estuary. If they're having trouble with the transition they'll hang up, or die in the mixing zone. Many folks assume this is an important issue regarding the at sea mortality. Similar work on salter brook trout populations is also being done. FlyFishingInMaine.com is partly funding the salter project with funds raised at the Conclave on the Big Eddy this year.

Boz · Newbie Joined: Oct 16, 2005 Posts: 61 Location: Portland

PeteD

You can call me crazy...but I think there is something very cool about catching any native fish that has not been "helped" by man. These fish and the places they live will become harder to find as our planet gets more and more crowded.

I would never suggest that we do a study to differentiate between pure strain/stock salmon. I think enough money is being spent now.

Here in many places in Maine stocking is the rule...not the exception.

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

A site worth checking out is the group founded by Gary Loomis (yes- that Loomis) to restore west coast salmon and steelhead runs. Gary and Co. have been doing a lot of good out west. A lot of similar work is being/has been done just to our east. Kind of funny that we're only starting to head that direction now. Anyway, the site is www.fishfirst.org Download the projects document and take some time to read through it. Pretty cool stuff they're doing out west (though they've come to the conclusion that a lot of their problem lies with commercial fishing and politics). They took a stream from no spawning fish to over 6K spawners in a few years- a pretty nice piece of work. I'm kind of partial to the spawning bed and woody debris enhancement projects.

PeteD · Newbie Joined: Oct 11, 2004 Posts: 10

Hunter,

It's clear that your very in tune with the 'science' of salmon restoration. Could only imagine how frustrating it must be at times. Very interesting how 'at sea mortality' might be taking place much closer to home than I would have ever thought. Smolt are in essence scarred during their transition from fresh to salt. I'm wondering how long they hang around in the brackish water before making their move towards Greenland? Obviously there are a large number of first year fish that never made their way much further than the river's mouth. Just seems like it would take more than a few weeks for the calcium to build up enough to put them at risk?

I have some friends involved in the NSSA. They have a number of 'local' projects in the works each given year. As many as their funds can afford. One of the recent projects has involved the liming of one of their river systems. They had a goal of bringing down the ph in the estuary to 5.5. I'm thinking now it is all tied in with your comments regarding acid rain and calcium on the gills. Bring down the PH and more juvenile salmon will make it to the next hurdle - the atlantic ocean? I know they've invested quite a bit of money on liming technology developed in Norway. Pretty sure the Nords take their salmon very seriously so have to hope its a step in the right direction. Are there any joint projects with the maritime provinces? What are your thoughts regarding the use of lime to correct PH? Would it have an effect on their transition from fresh to salt?

Boz - Nothing crazy about wanting to catch fish that have non been tampered with in any way, shape or form. Problem is all Atlantic Salmon in our part of the world have been touched by man (in the worst of ways) in one way or another. Just have to appreciate them for what they are and the struggles they go through to keep species alive. Not sure if we're helping at all but at least we're feeling their pain.

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

Spend two years writing a thesis on low pH water, aluminum, iron and phosphorus mobility and you pick up stuff along the way. And if you have an interest in fish, a there are a ton of papers on the subject to paw your way through. I've got a nice stack filed away.

You've got the science a bit backwards- calcium is a natural part of the gill structure and aids in the transfer of oxygen (and "salt") across the gill membrane into (and out of) the fish. Aluminum actually exchanges for the calcium, removing that transfer site in chronically acidic conditions. It can also plate out (smother) the gill in episodic acidification (snow melt, heavy acid laden rains, etc...). Calcium is a good thing, but has been depleted heavily from our soils from 150 years of acid rain (since the industrial revolution and coal burning en mass caught on). Calcium is the major cation that keeps our stream pH's up, but it's slow to weather from bedrock. Lime (Ca(OH)2) is added to systems to bring the pH up- typically to somewhere around 6. Above 6.4 and below 5.5 and aluminum solubility increases sharply.

Liming is an interesting issue. While it sounds good, instream liming can be deadly to fish in the mixing zone if the stream is acidic enough upstream. If applied directly to a stream it will rapidly increase the pH. If the stream has a lot of dissolved aluminum, it will tend to coagulate and precipitate. These mixing zones are the most deadly to fish as the coagulating/precipitating aluminum will quickly clog fish gills. However, downstream from the immediate mixing zone, the benefits can outway the negative effects. Another approach to liming is to lime the watershed- applying lime to the stream banks, etc... to keep the stream pH up from the start. There are several such projects going on right now in Maine, including some experiments at the Pleasant river hatchery and a few in the field. The methods we've developed for looking at the Al/Fe/P chemistry are being used to monitor water quality. Personally, I think the chemistry of rivers/streams drives more than what you might expect for fish movements (and, anecdotally, this has improved my fishing).

Out-migrating smolts are typically quick to exit an estuary (to get away from predators). I think they head out to feed on shrimp before turning north. I'm not sure how important the feeding grounds off Greenland were before we cleaned the GoM out of a number of important prey items. I suspect more fish stayed and fed local historically. Anyway, if the transition into the salt is an issue, it should show up in telemetry studies. If they can't regulate salt content in their blood, or breath, they're likely to end up in a shag nest.

And to my knowledge- there are no joint projects with the maritime provinces. In fact- the St. Croix river is all but forgotten about because neither side wants to work on it. Folks do cross the border to attend conferences quite regularly (in fact- there's a big one coming up in Newfoundland this summer- I'm trying to figure out how to go and fish while there).

PeteD · Newbie Joined: Oct 11, 2004 Posts: 10

It's of no surprise I had it backwards... I have a tough enough time fishing for them let alone trying to save them. Seeing as though I have little to offer, I've reached out to a friend in Nova Scotia that is involved with NSSA. He passed the thread along to a couple others that are very active in salmon restoration efforts in the province. It'd be great to see ideas from both sides of the border exchanged. Keep us posted on the results of the telemetry study.

spector82 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Huh?

jeremy · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: great

Spector .. great responses .. very clear and simple and helped me to understand much more .. Thanks so much.