Posted: Thu 10/06/05 2:06 pm Post subject: Fly Fishing Rod Reviews
Ok - Here is a question. Do you guys REALLY think that there is a difference between the fly rods on the market today? or are we just paying for the cost of their high end expensive marketing campaigns? I would like to hear peoples honest opinions about different manufacturers and how their products stand up. Keep in mind - not just the product - but warranty options - and overall corporate philosophies etc... I hear alot of people talk about how great certain brands are and how other brands leave alot to be desired. Will be interesting to see the reviews from fly fisherman and not the typical biased marketing information from manufacturers themselves. So - if you post - don't just beat up a manufacturer or tout a manufacturer just for the sake of doing so - I would like to hear honest and valid critiques of manufacturers and their ROD's based on first hand experience and technical attributes. That way - if we take away all biased and pre-convieved prejudices about the product/manufacturer landscape on the market today - we may in fact be able to find out how different rods measure up and use that information when considering our purchases. I am actually in the market for a new steelhead rod - and will certainly use this information myself in the near future.
PS. I have always thought about something - If you put a blindfold on and reached into a basket of rods - all of equal weight and rigged with the same reel and line - do you really think you could tell the difference between which ones were "better"?
Howdy!
Jeremy, No.
All my rods that I own cast the same. By that I mean that all the same rod weights cast the same. A different weight always seems to cast differently than another weight to me and it should. But the same weights cast alike if they are similar in action.
I have casted sage's, redingtons, albrights, winstons, the list goes on and on and they all feel the same to me. It seems like if you get a $150 rod it will cast the same as the others for twice that price. Tight lines
Thats a complex question, Jer. There are multiple issues to consider. To take the last first,
"If you put a blindfold on and reached into a basket of rods - all of equal weight and rigged with the same reel and line - do you really think you could tell the difference between which ones were "better"?"
No, for most med/fast rods. There are some extreme actions that would be noticeably different, but better is in the eye of the beholder.
As far as the other parts of the question, the answer would have to be "It depends"
First, what is a lifetime warranty worth? If you expect the maker to replace your rod every time you slam the tip in the car door, than by all means, buy a rod w/ a lifetime replacement warranty. $$$$$
Second, If you admire or appreciate the tradition or reputation of a certain name of a rod maker or company, or if owning a "finely crafted" rod will enhance your fishing enjoyment, than by all means, a T&T or a Winston is for you. $$$$$$
Last, If you are a technology junkie and that new "weightless" rod that's made out of unobtanium lights your fire, than go for it. $$$$$$$
If none of these things matter to you, then check out TFO they are an outstanding value IMHO.
I guess I didn't really address the question of comparing Company A w/ Company B, but to be honest about it, when I'm fishing, I think very little about the rod in my hand, as long as it's the right length / weight to do the job. All of my rods with the exception of an Orvis far and fine, are rods I built myself on blanks from Rainshadow, Pac Bay and Powell.
I think a proficient fly caster can pick up any rod, regardless of action or brand and smooth their stroke out to work with that rod.
How many different ways can a rod be designed and manufactured?
I asked both an engineer and a machinist that question this summer.
Both gave me the same answer...........one way.
After the design of a rod the baking process is pretty much the same throughout the industry.
The variables are materials, rod actions, cost of production and quality control.
I've broken Albright, Orvis, St Croix, Fenwick, and Sage.
Most all manufacturers carry a similar warranty. With the market as competiitve as it is, they are all in the business of customer retention so keeping you happy is always a priority. However you can always expect to pay between $35 and $65 for a warranty. A little bit of noise and a threat to buy a competitors rod and you won't pay a dime. That's industry wide.
Most of the industry leaders have recently added the clause to their warranty "we reserve the right to repair or replace the rod, based on our discretion"
In other words, "it's gotten too expensive for us to replace every rod, so for those rods we can repair at a cheaper cost, we will."
I broke two rods this summer. Both rods were the same brand and model. The answer the manufacturer gave me was that they had a "bad batch" of rods that were baked at their production facility. My question to them was "how did the rods make it out the door to dealer locations?"
After this experience, I email 8 major rod companies. I asked them all what their quality control processes were. I told them my next saltwater rod would be purchased based on their qualitly control procedures.
A few had very little quality control processes because their products are manufactured over-seas. Basically when the batch of rods comes back stateside after production they are whiped down, put in socks, tubes, and shipped to retail locations.
Where as your US based manufacturers had a more hands on approach to post production with random tests and one manufacturer tests EACH rod.
Coincidentally, the companies with US production facilities, reflect the highest prices, but rarely do they allow a bad batch of rods to make it out off the shipping dock. In turn, you here of fewer breaking incidents and angry customers complaining about rod problems.
The difference lies in the company's abilitiy to produce a product with consistency, limiting the flaws during productionand sending only near flawless rods out on the market.
Based on my research, my next saltwater rod will be a Sage or Orvis.
Thomas & Thomas had the best quality control process IMHO.
I second the TFO. I purchased a 9 foot 7 wt for early season schoolies and that rod is a rocket. it takes every bit of line i can feed it.
Most all the rods cast very well and are pretty light. But i have to say i do prefer sage and TFO over the other brands. I love the TFO as a value rod with great performance and sage for my higher price rods. The reason i like sage is is they do cast a Tiny bit better for me than other rods but the big reason is customer service. I have brokens sage, st. croix, and a g loomis rod with in their warranty and sage was the easiest and fasted to fix. G. loomis on two occasions took forever to come back which cost me some serious fishin time and i now call st croix "st. snap" after the but of the rod broke not once but twice while i was fighting a fish perfectly and one that the rod could handle. It's happende to some friends of mine as well so i really dislike st croix.
Posted: Fri 03/03/06 7:16 pm Post subject: First Message - New Reel New Rod
I just joined this sight and this is the first message I've tried. I'm living on the Texas Gulf Coast and am about to purchase my first fly rod and reel for redfish in the saltwater flats. Wind is a factor.
I've found your comments interesting. I'm planning to go with an Orvis Battenkill Mid Arbor IV, 7/8 wt $129 (March special from Orvis is free Wonderlline and backing with reel purchase - will ask at the Orvis store for the right line but I've been told that as a beginner consider a line wt one up from the rod) and for the rod - a TFO Lefty Kreh TiCr Signature Series 8wt. 4pc 9'-0" $210.
I tried the Sage Xi2 and it felt great. I just don't feel worthy at this time.
The weather down here is beginning to warm up. Time for action!
I think RickW hit the nail on the head. It's what matters to you. It its a warranty, then I think the older more well established companies agree superior, if only because they are more likely to be in business when you use the warranty. If it's pretty, then go that route. Most of the labels make a higher end rod that just has nicer jewlry on it.
Sure, there may not be much of a difference in the way a rod is made, but the differences in taper, material and design all do vary. It's like building a car in one respect. There may be only way to turn a bolt, but there are many ways to built an automobile.
IMHO, all of the major fly rod manufacturers make a good product and if someone can't find a suitable rod that they can cast then they really need to be spending their money on casting lessons or a spinning rod.
I believe that all rods will do the trick and get you by to a certain extent. Then, I don't know if it's style, or skill, or the natural urge for us gear-heads to get more gear, but we want better stuff.
I have had the oppurtunity to cast many rods and I believe that certain price ranges are the same. no matter the manufacturer.
a $100-200 rod casts about the same over the industry a $600 rod cast about as well as anybody elses.
I also beleive that there is a bit to the fact that castig technique throws a play. Some rods are more forgiving to certain imperfections than others. For instance. I think that Orvis rods in the 1-200 range cast like unfolding lawn chairs, but I can kick butt with cortlands in the same range.
Recently I have fallen in love with Scott rods. ( I used to be in love with Sage) Eastern flyshops don't carry them much but I love the actions. I think my style casts them great. and they are relatively small compared to the big guys, or they just seem to work that way, someone always pick up the phone and always make it easy to deal with them.
I have found that some of the real small ones are great rods but you can never get them on the phone-and big companies are too big
Fly rods are like anything else: there is a lot of personal preference involved and casting style plays a big role. That being said I think that there is a huge difference in castibility of high end rods versus the cheaper rods. I am lucky enugh to cast fly rods every day so I get to see what I like and what I don't like. A lot of the middle of the road rods have become extremely popular lately. Probably the most notable is the TFO. You really get a feel for fast action rods when you start to cast them at long distances. This rod from the few times I have cast it does fine out to about 70 feet but when you start to get in that 85 foot plus range you really feel the differences between this rod and say, a XP or S3. With this much line out, you are going to notice any dead spots or uneven spots along the rod where it doesn't feel like it loads even. Are you fishing at these ranges? rarely if ever, but it does give you an honest assesment of the rod you are casting. Probably a better test for most trout fisherman is just casting 30 feet with as tight as loop as possible. You will notice some rods are much more accurate and track much better. Just my .02 cents.
Posted: Wed 03/22/06 12:27 pm Post subject: why not boo?
I think there is a trend in the fly rod manufacturing that is leading to faster and faster rods. It seems to me that medium action rods of today would be considered fast action 5 yrs ago? I dont like a fast rod, becuase I think it detracts from the play of the fish. Due to this reason and a bad spending habit, I made the switch to bamboo. Heavier then graphite, you bet, but the joy of casting a self loading material and the feel of a trout on the end is incomparable to the faster graphite rods of today.
-Chris
Yes. With a selection of unmarked fly rods, you will feel a difference. Even though bearing the same weight and action designations, some will feel smoother, or more agressive or more sensitive. Dampening can be very different from model to model. To be even more subjective, some will feel "right" and others will feel like casting a brick with a two-by-four.
Costing more isn't always an indicator of "better" for you, as the many TFO and Redington apologists indicate. On the other hand, speaking from many many hours of experience, there are plenty of low priced fly rods out there that aren't worth using for anything other than long distance marshmallow roasting.
Which is "best" will be whichever one helps you to cast best, think about your casting less and puts up with the stress you put it under. Oh, and looks good doing it. This is not the primary concern for me, but I am not ashamed to acknowledge that it adds to my enjoyment of the sport to have a finely crafted tool that looks like it. This shouldn't be discounted. Unless you get a huge discount going in, a full lifetime warranty should be a given no matter what you buy, IMHO.
I have tried dozens of rods over the last several months, prior to purchasing my first "upgraded" rod. I have tried rods costing under $100 and over $600 and everywhere in between (I didn't feel worthy to handle rods costing more). Sometimes the one that fit me best was the less expensive one. Sometimes it wasn't. If it means anything, I could have spent more but ended up spending $200 and couldn't be happier.
Oh, by the way, does anybod know - is singed graphite poisonous?
I've been thinking about picking up a new rod for the upcoming fishing season. Looking for something with a little different action as the rods I have are fast or medium fast...
Seems that the biggest part of the equation these days is finding value in a product. In my mind and from the responses I read here, that value (for fly rods anyway) we could sum up with three things:
1. Price
2. Warranty
3. Service
I really believe that it is becoming harder every year to find a rod that is truly terrible to cast as the technology has improved. So why is it some folks will spend $700 for a rod and others only $100?
The answer is easy...open your wallet, if you're like me there isn't much going on in there... we know what dictates this purchase. And if you are still struggling to pull your thick wallet from your pocket...we've got an idea what you might buy.
We can easily break fly fishing rods down into three catagories everyone understands... Price
1. Low Priced 25-200 dollars
2. Mid Priced 200-500 dollars
3. High Priced 500 dollars and up
Here is where things get interesting...Do you think the guy catching a fish on a 25 dollar rod is having anymore fun than the guy catching fish on a $600 dollar rod? I doubt it. But there is something about the feel of casting a well crafted fly rod and the pride of ownership associated with it.
I'd consider myself a proficient caster and feel that most good casters out there can deliver the fly where they want and how they want with rods ranging in price from 50 to 750 dollars... Chances are if those folks can throw tight loops on a Walmart special, then they could likely work magic with a high end piece.
Here's an analogy...
I used to drive a beatup pickup truck, and it got me where I needed to go, didn't look very nice and had a very uncomfortable bench seat, and was sometimes unreliable. It served its purpose. Now days I drive a newer truck and while I'm still the same driver the ride is better looking and alot more comfortable and reliable than the old one.
I am not attempting to beat up the high end rod makers here...As I own a few myself and really love "driving" them...but for this year I'm looking for some help finding a more moderate action rod that performs like the "new" ride for the price of the "old beater"...
I'm sure as always the members of fliesandfins.com can offer up suggestions and feedback.
Thanks,
Greg B
Last edited by Boz on Thu 01/29/09 8:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
Boz, There aren't many "Slow" action fly rods on the market today but I would urge you to look at the Diamondglass rods by Diamondback. They are a cool niche rod and a dream to cast under 50 feet with. Price isn't bad and they aren't heavy like the old glass rods. They will change your mind about the old gladss and make you take another look. Happy hunting, the slow rods are cheaper nowadays since the industry wants fast light and powerful.
Posted: Thu 01/29/09 10:47 pm Post subject: Great Topic
Boz,
Great topic here .. and interesting to see it evolve and re-ignite itself after having originally started in 2006! .. It's now 2009 .. There is new technology, many of the same manufacturerers, some manufacturerers have folded and are not longer .. and there are new manufacturers. And, it goes without saying that THE CURRENT ECONOMIC CLIMATE is MUCH different than it was in 2006 and, let's be honest .. PRICE is definately a driving factor .. in the sense that many will only be able to afford "low end" .. some will be able to afford "middle end" (but they will probably be more analytical about what they choose .. and yes, some will be able to afford "high end" (but again - and like you said - value will always be given to "higher end" things for those sole purpose that quality is usually associated with higher price and many people do put a premium on quality) - nonetheless .. ALL purchases, whether low, mid or high range, will probably be scrutinized and contemplated now more than ever. So, speaking to your question directly - i can put in my .02 cents about how i see things the landscape of options in regards to my INITIAL thoughts of what manufacturers offer products that fit within these classifications .. or at least how my brain (based on what i know) thinks of things (and i am sure there is much that i am aware of - for example, shaq mentions "diamond back" rods .. I've never hear of those .. but that doesn't mean they are not a good option .. simply that i am really only able to speak to what i know .. but, much like the digital camera post, if we all share what we know -- we might all learn something... and be able to collectively help each other to make wise and informed decisions .. or at least be aware of the what decisions their are .. and what that positives and negatives of any 1 decision .. Infact, I am sure we will
.. curious about what others think? Here's how I personally think of it .. based on the manufacturers that I am aware of .. and have had some sort of exposure to.
I feel like writing, so ill throw some sh!t in....... I believe rods are being improved today, only in the categories of weight(lbs,oz), durability and price. For example, Orvis has set the standard in their making of a 9wt that is as light as a 6wt; the Helios. Weight reduction has been a gradual advancement and this rod is as close at it comes to a groundbreaking innovation in rod making in recent times (like a 16 year old would know). Anyway, i don't even own an Orvis; i fish a 9' 9" 9wt Loomis cross current with a Lamson Lightspeed and neither have failed me. That boomstick can shoot a full line, its durable as hell and it is very pretty. My arm may get fatigued at times but i figure it only makes me stronger. I would carry the 10 footer into battle over the Helios any day of the week.
Posted: Thu 01/29/09 11:08 pm Post subject: Patrick
Patrick - GREAT feedback - and fair enough! .. and this isn't an excercise in "beating up" one and "inflating" another .. (not that you were doing that) .. Point being .. you mention G-Loomis? see .. I forgot all about that .. and to be honest, have never had much exposure to it .. So, if you are a 16 year old, I am curious as to how you see the options in terms of
LOW END OPTIONS - 25-100 bucks
MID RANGE OPTIONS - 200-500 bucks
HIGH-END OPTIONS - 500 bucks and up
When YOU think of those three categories .. what do you think of in terms of OPTIONS for each of those categories? Look at my post and you will see what I mean .. and where does G-loomis fall into that?
PS. Just for the record, If you have never fish the "Helios" I don't think its necessarily fair to say "I would take the 10 footer into battle over the helios any day of the week." .. I am not saying that you WOULDN'T .. just saying that if you've never fished one .. it's not really a fair statement. That's all .. I have alot of orvis rods and I happen to like them. But, whatever that's just me.. everyone has different preferences etc.. and that's totally cool -- point is .. I am curious as to what you see as being the options available to you, based on what you know, in regards to
LOW END OPTIONS - 25-100 bucks
MID RANGE OPTIONS - 200-500 bucks
HIGH-END OPTIONS - 500 bucks and up
Thanks man -- and see, you already mentioned one that I am not too familiar with at all "G-loomis" .. thanks.
There are several variables that I have determined to be valuable to me over decades of fishing. My rods are picked the same way you pick a golf club each club having a specific purpose and each rod is for a specific purpose. Most of my rods are made by Orvis as the blanks are made in the US and if one gets broken you get the same blank as you had not a blank made by the lowest bidder that week but the same blank. People in their 20s to 40s will live to see the 25 year warranty pass, I won't so 25 years is a lifetime guarantee. I buy my rods from someone I have known long enough to trust and get superior service from. If you fish as much as I do or more, things happen, rods break and I like it replaced. You can not get the same service from a large company as you get from your local fly shop, assuming you have one, as the fly shop earns it's money with personal service. I have mid rods I have bought as they apealed to me as the rod for the job and I have bought high end for the same reasons. When it comes to Brand, branding = marketing and gives a rod company the abillity to sell you a rod before you have even held one let alone fish it! Most Brands have full flrx, mid flex and tip flex rods, soft action to stiff. I like the above things in a rod. But you can take the silver top off a cigarette package, rap that around a hook, tie it to string tied to a stick and catch fish!! everything after that is personal choice.
I think it all depends on what you are using the rod for. If you are a trout fisherman looking for a decent rod to cast dries with I think any low to mid priced rod will do the trick. I use low to mid priced rods all summer and they can get a long enough cast out to a picky trout and they are generally pretty durable. I agree with what lunchbox said about the higher end rods being able to cast more line. I had to teach a casting clinic (not that I am a good caster, it was to sell trips) once a week at a local hotel and we would always bring very low end rods for the participants. We would measure our casts to find that after 70+ feet you just couldn't fire it any further (I know I know it was proabably me..) but when we brought up more expensive rods the distance would increase by 15-20 feet. it has been my expereince that a trout fisherman doesnt need to cast a 70-100 feet of line....but a saltwater angler does. So in this case I would suggest that an angler that is looking for a salt water rod might want to spend a little more coin on a fly rod.
Jeremy, I definitely agree. My opinion wasn't supported and surely sounded biased. I went to my local Orvis store this past spring and casted a 9wt helios and was truly amazed by it's performance. I obviously don't have $900 lying around so it was really just for sh!ts and gigs. What i was really trying to say was that I dont think i would favor the reduced weight in "striper country" when punching a tight loop through a stiff wind. I imagine that the legendary surf-flyfisherman Bob Popovics might feel the same way. He fishes a 10'6" 9wt that is something like 5.6oz vs a 9' 9wt Helios that weighs 3.25oz. Like he, I have found my niche on foot in the surf where a long rod with a stiff backbone can a times be a necessity. With no real experience, I THINK that i would prefer the Helios in lighter, more favorable conditions over the cross current but it costs a few hundred dollars more. BTW, that day at orvis I bought a 5wt TLS that I love. As of now, Loomis and Orvis are the only two companys that i've really had experience with and I respect them both.
Thanks,
Pat
ya .. fair enough .. and i totally agree - in the saltwater sometimes i don't want something LIGHT .. i want some that feels like a piece of IRON .. heavy as possible with very little bend ))))
seriously -- kinda like guitar strings -- meaning they make guitar strings in different guages and market them a light/medium/heavy and i Think even SUPER heavy ..... now sometimes light is better for trying to achieve a specific sound or when certain finger movements are easier to do with lighter guage strings ... BUT sometimes ... when you just wanna play powerchords and rip on some ACDC or NIRVANA or whatever .. the light strings don't have the same effect or endurance as super heavy strings .. you'd like the rod my friend Ed built for shark fishing .. THICK and TOUGH TO BEND .. virtually a steel pole .. but "gets the job done' .. nicely. So, like everything "different strokes for different folks" and "a time and a place for everything" ... peace.
Getting back to the question... I'm looking for a 9ft 5wt...something in a mid flex. I seem to have problems hook setting too hard on those big evening risers at the big eddy and breaking light tippet on the set with "faster" rods. I've cast the Winston BIIt and think it'd be a good choice...all but the price right now...
So just lookin something in the low to mid range price to fit the bill...
If I can find the right rod for the right coin...than maybe I can also get a 14 weight "iron stick" as Jeremy suggested to battle Bluefin on
The BIIt is a nice casting rod. My favorite medium action rod is the Scott G2. I love this rod. Again, I don't know if you get a hook up or not but it runs right around the same cost as the winston. If you do some looking around you might be able to find some discontinued models such as the Winston LT (8'9"), BL5, Sage SP, SLT, and VPS light (8'6") (all great rods). For a reasonable cost I have thrown the Echo rods and they are a nice casting rod. Hardware isn't fancy but they do cast quite well.
This is a good post, lots of good advice and info.
For me it is about function over form. I would rather have a rod that casts like a dream for what i'm targeting than worry about cost and what brand of rod i'm fishing. I have had the opportunity to cast many rods over the years, both expensive and not so expensive, and I must say that the biggest difference that I have notice between the two is looks and name recognition.
One of the best rods I have ever owned was an 8'6" cortland 6 weight fly rod. It has to be about 20 year old now(and now broken), but it was made here in the U.S. It had a medium action and cast a WF6F line like a dream. I could reach out and touch fish at 50 to 60 feet with relative ease and handle the close stuff even better. I could use it for streamer fishing and small dries and it would lay out the line like a dream. It was not an expensive rod, but boy did it perform like one! I have cast some expensive rods that have performed really well too, and have a nice G. loomis rod that is an absolute cannon. But for me I like choosing a rod that fits my specific porpose to a "T" even if that means spending $500. But you really don't have to. Why spend $600 on a fast action 4 weight Sage for small stream trout just becuase it's a Sage, when a $100-$200 dollar Cortland, Diamondback, TFO, Redington, St croix, etc. will work even better! If fly fishing is all about what name brand rod you fish, then you have to ask yourself what are you really trying to accomplish.
Sometimes i think people forget being a brand snob can go two ways. There are those who will only fish the expensive brands because they need to, but i see a lot of the low end brand snobs too. If you automatically say a rod with brand X on it can not be any better then a rod with brand Z, because it is crazy to spend $600+ for a rod from brand X. I think that is just as bad as assuming when a rod costs more it is better.
Purchasing a fly rod is a very subjective thing. One rod may suite my taste for a certain situation more the someone else. It is never fair to judge an angler buy the rod they use.
If you are in the market for a new fly rod. Cast as many rods as you can. Don't look at the brands, don't look at the prices just cast. After you cast every rod you can, then make your decision based on how the rod felt in your hand. You will notice even as a beginner there will be one rod that stands out from the rest. If that rod happens to be out of your price range, try and find a rod with similar characteristics in your price range. then cast those rods side by side to determine what rod you like more and if the extra money is worth it.
i have just an orvis 6wt clearwater series and out of all my rods that is my favorite it casts real well and just is my overall favorite rod. i would recomend trying it out if i was you. its a really cheap rod
Posted: Tue 04/28/09 8:25 pm Post subject: Fly Rod Review.
Thanks for all the imfo,as I don't get to Flyfish much these days,I have found the rods,lines have improved out of sight & unless you are in a position to test rods,you don't know which casts best,& as mentioned,are all made by the same process.
There are numerous makers,assemblers around,and it is a puzzle to determine what rod to buy,whether on lenght ,weight,its application,
price,warranty,finish,etc.
The new high modulas rods are a dream to cast with, though the old glass rods were heavier & done the job they were probably more durable,as you now hear of more rods being broken,whilst fishing,you will still get the occassional one damaged by the car door,boot lid,tree branch etc.
Bottom line,all rods will cast a fly,so buy one which suits your budget & the applications you need it for,& with the prices of some of the good rods of today,some of us have numerous rods,because if you are away somewhere fishing,& happen to break a rod,you can't just go to the local &
buy another. From all the good reports the TFO's come up OK.
liphooked
I do believe there is a difference in the way certain rods form different companies feel and cast. The low ends rods in my opinion form most companies feel pretty much the same to me. ( except TFO ) I just found a orvis zero gravity 9wt mid 6.0 on closeout price to replace my sage launch, and to me personally it like night and day. these are both on the slow side of medium rods, but the way they cast are much different. I personally love the way the zero gravity handles big redfish flies in the 30 to 60ft range.
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