Fly Fishing

jinxed247

I just got my new Orvis fly fishing catalog and I see that they are trying to decommission the Veazie dam and the Howland dam to free up 1000+ miles of river. My question for the Maine Fishermen....is would that get a good salmon run up for you all? And what other opportunites would that free up? What other fishing would that offer since the fish would have an unobstructed access to the river?

joey · Newbie Joined: May 31, 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Colorado

I dont really know jinxed. Right now the dam in "sleezy veazie"(as we called it in college) controls the salmon count in the penobscot. From what I have heard from bangor locals is that when there are atlantics in the system for some reason many of them will hold in a deep pool near the base of the dam. Then, once the water is lowered it pushes the fish towards a fish ladder where they can move over the dam, be detained for egg harvesting or whatever. Over the past couple years there haven't been huge numbers of fish coming into this system. I fished for them on year during the special season with no luck at all. One angler was lucky enough to land 13lb atlantic but he also fished there EVERYDAY. So what the dam removal will do who knows?

My only thought is this. Back in the early nineties, before the Edwards dam was removed, my father and I would fish the Kennebec river nearly everyday in Augusta. There were so many Atlantics below the dam it was insane. I was still young so I would watch my dad most of the time. But, in the corse of a few months he landed and released over 100 Atlantics all in the double digits. You could walk up bond brook, which was closed for spawning, and see as many atlantics as you'd like. It was crazy....the next year the fish were not there and a few years after that they took the dam out. I haven't seen or heard of people fishing or catch atlatics since then. Did they come back? was it a fluke year? did they die? what happened I don't know. But there was a time not too long ago that these fish were abundant in the Kennebec (which is almost Identical to the Penobscot)

so to answer your question, Will dam removal improve fishing? who knows. If the fish are there wouldn't this spread them out over miles and miles. I think now the AS run is too insignificant to really tell. Unless we get another wild year like we did in the nineties on the Kennebec.

twocan · Newbie Joined: Dec 03, 2006 Posts: 17

Good post jinxed. I read about this a while ago and was wondering the same thing. I would think pulling out damns is good, but I don't know for sure. Messing with nature is a slippery slope which is what was done building the damns. Did that have a negative impact and is removing them a positive thing? Could it be that simple? Come on Mainer's let's hear what you think.

BarryW · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject:

My only direct experience with recovery of fisheries post-dam removal in Maine relates to the Smelt Hill Dam on the Presumpscot river (which flows from Sebago Lake into Casco Bay). This dam was placed at the head of tide in the 1750's and effectively wiped out a native strain of Atlantic salmon. The dam had been irretrievably damaged as a result of a storm in Oct 94(?) and had only fish elevators. After much negotiating with Sappi paper, CCA and Maine's DMR were able to negotiate its removal in the fall of 2004. CCA and a number of NGO's commissioned an independent fish count one year post-removal using an envtl consulting firm, Normandeau. This boiled down to electro-shocking upstream of the dam site to determine the return rates of certain anadromous/catadromous species. The other purpose was to show fish extending their range above the dam and force fish passage on the remaining dams (which has recently happened). This river had a decent run of alewives that were able to make it above the dam site using elevators; small but healthy run- just ask the striper fishermen who targeted fish below the dam in early June. The Normandeau fish study showed a return of American Shad, Alewives, eels and perhaps blueback herring. The river's recovery in one year lends itself to the hypothesis that fisheries rebound quickly. I have heard anecdotally that the aquatic insect count above the Edwards dam within a few years of its removal ballooned and that the river's clarity and health have been dramatically improved. Interestingly, striper fishermen complained initially that the dam's removal impacted the fishery in a bad way- probably because the bass were no longer focused on trapped prey below the dam site. The fish are still there though and it just takes re-learning the water. My thought is that tidal rivers with dams are archaic and not in the public's interest- certainly not in the fish's interest. They just impact migratory species too dramatically.

jinxed247 · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject:

Great responses. This is an interesting topic to me because I heard through the grape vine that they are planning on removing a dam in Ellisburg, NY at the monitor mills road. This would allow the steelhead and salmon that get stopped by the dam access all the way up past Bellville and into the Adams area, which would put a major run in my backyard just about!! I had tried fishing in the areas above the dam but the only thing that ever lived in there were creek chub. I wonder if this would also positively affect the economy of these towns as it would wuite literally create a couple of mini Pulaski. The stream runs up all the way behind McDonalds in Adams where there is another dam but at least you wouldn't have far to go for lunch!!

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

A bit long, but you asked Cool

First, a little history:

The Penobscot once was home to almost unbelievable anadromous fish runs. Estimates based on historical catches place alewive/blueback herring runs around 10 million or more fish, shad around 2 million, and salmon near a hundred thousand. Never mind the multitudes of other species such as shortnose and atlantic sturgeon, stripers, smelts, and sea run brook trout. The Penobscot Restoration project takes out the lower two impediments to those runs (though smelts and sturgeon probably didn't make it miles up river), places a state of the art fishway at the third dam upstream (will be the first after the other two are removed) and will bypass the next dam (~60 miles upstream) to open up nearly 500 river miles of habitat to those species once they make it through the new fishway in Milford.

Multispecies restoration is the goal. It's not only a salmon world anymore in the sense that to restore one species folks are learning that you need to work on restoring a whole variety of other species. River herring are now thought to serve as a cover species, allowing smolt outmigration to the ocean with reduced predation. The Penobscot below the dams has more cormorants and seals than I've seen anywhere on the east coast, including maritime Canada. I've even seen porpoises up in the river above Bucksport feeding while striper fishing. Also, the bay has more bait than most places I've been too (mostly smelts), but there's a disconnect upriver below the dams where river life is pretty limited during the outmigration that puts the predatory focus on the smolts. Where talking about a very productive ecosystem just waiting to explode with additional life.

Elsewhere, on the Kennebec river salmon restoration experiments are being tried on an unbelievable tributary, with results almost three times higher than any of the downeast rivers. I spent a day in November helping the biologist (ok, I just watched) hydraulically plant "extra" eggs from the hatchery into "natural" type redds. In stream rearing. So far, the question is whether or not the number of returns seen so far is a result of unbelievable habitat or the fact that the Kennebec smolts meet up with a tributary below Lockwood dam that pumps in huge numbers of alwives, masking the smolts to predators. I think it's a variety of factors, but definitely think the river herring increases post Edwards dam removal are making a positive impact. Hopefully, the Penobscot strain will make a comeback along with other species.

Also, a restored shad run is estimated at 800,000 adult fish (given the habitat that will be available to them). The historical shad run reached Milo on the Piscataquis trib, East Millinocket (Shad Pond on the Penobscot) and upstream on the east Branch to Island Falls. Stripers were recorded to Passadumkeag. Now, the restoration project isn't going completely restore all fish to their native ranges, but it'll give them a good start. Imagine having a 40 mile drift boat fishery for shad. It's VERY doable on the Penobscot.

Another part of the equation right now is working out funding of such restoration efforts. A recent survey by Kleinschmidt Associates placed the alewive run around 5k fish, and only recorded a handful of shad juveniles (a fish that produces multiple batches of eggs up to 200k to 600k per female). Female shad run 3-8 lbs a piece and fight somewhat like salmon (hence the poor mans salmon knickname), so there's a demand for a fishery. On the Susquahanna, the value of a restored shad fishery is estimated up to 180 million dollars in economic activity. I don't think you'll see that much here, but any amount is better than what's centered along the river currently. But funding for restoration has to happen before shad stocks will respond as it's not as likely if relying on natural straying to repopulate the river.

And it's not just about the river fisheries. Imagine the importance to the entire Gulf of Maine to increase the anadromous fish biomass back to something approaching historic levels. That's a lot of rich feed for multiple commercial AND recreational saltwater species of interest. That alone is worth the project in my opinion.

This year, CCA is sponsoring a striper tagging tourney up here to help agencies gauge how many stripers make it this far north and place tags in fish to track migration patterns on recapture. I'll let you in on a little secret- last year 32 fish were implanted with acoustic tags that were surplus from other efforts. As of the end of November/first week in Decembet there were still some pingers swimming around in the river. The tourney will run June 21st to July 26th if anyone is interested. Prizes and categories are still being arranged, but on the 26th there will be a river gathering of sorts on the waterfront. Tags, a tagging kit, and striper tagging training will be provided. Should be interesting to see how it turns out. I'm not sure anyone has tried a tourney this far north, but hey- you'll never catch anything if you don't wet a line.

Btw, the Penobscot is the 18th largest river in the US by annual discharge- right behind the Klamath, Colville, Delaware, Connecticut, Hudson and Sacromento- not exactly a shabby list of names when talking migratory fisheries. So Yeah, I think the outcome will be a positive one for both the Penobscot and a multitude of fisheries and other wildlife.

jinxed247 · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject:

That is some awesome info hunter. I really appreciate the time that you took to respond. I am hoping that we will get similar results if/when (I am optimistic) the dam out here gets removed. Thanks again for the info.

Hunter · Newbie Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 39

A river won't typically respond right away. Often, you're going to have to wait several generations of fish to start seeing the real effect. With river herring runs for instance, this years spawn won't be back for 3-5 years. Throw a high water season or two in the way and things slow down a little. But rivers have a way of healing themselves.

On a Kennebec tributary, the alewive run a few years ago was abysmally low- only held up from DMR stocking. Then TU took over doing a bucket brigade for a season or two to help DMR move fish around the dams to jumpstart the run. Then a temporary fish pump at Ft. Halifax dam installed to aid fish passage wasn't working right. A high of 45,000 fish was passed there two years ago. This year, after some tweaking by the manufacturer the pump passed 461,000 alewives (and blueback herring). Wanna take a guess what that run will be like in a couple more years?

A few folks were unhappy with the fishery change post Edwards dam because they didn't see the results right away. Slowly, they're coming around, though you're always going to have a few folks complaining about the loss of the old artificial fisheries that had been created by the river blockage and fish stacking up.

The Kennebec, btw, is only a few back from the Penobscot in terms of annual discharge. We're talking big rivers with big potential impacts on multiple species and multiple fisheries. Maine's estuaries have some serious potential right now for expanding recreational fisheries.

jinxed247 · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject:

I can't wait to fish Maine one of these days. I am supposed to head up at the end of June for my wifes family reunion. I don't know if I'll be able to go now because of work but if I do you can bet I'll be packing my fly rod!!