Fly Fishing - Fly Line

Matt1515 · Location: Greensboro, NC

It's time to replace my sinking line. I've had an older version of Orvis' wonderline and was curious if someone had a different suggestion. As far as sinking lines, this is the only one I've had experience with. Although I am a big time Orvis supporter, I have not been impressed with the floating wonderline I bought a year ago. It seems to have a mind of it's own. Are the sinking lines as easily knotted up as the floating lines? Over the years I have really only bought RIO lines and Orvis lines. If there is something I'm missing out on, I love to hear about it.

chromefinder · Location: Southeast PA

For stillwaters I really like Cortland 444 Clear Camo Intermediate - sink rate of 1.5" to 2" inches per second, a very soft supple supple line. I Also like the SA Mastery Stillwater lines which are not a supple as the 444 Clear Camo and tend to be a bit more durable for me.

jeremy · Location: Portland, Maine

I have tried many .. and, for me, I still default to and love the Orvis Depth fly line. Why? Well the biggest issue for me that I get SOOOOO frustrated with in the saltwater is this ..

1. Sun + Salt = Dry 'sticky' fly line

2. I will have a lot of line stripped off either on the ground, in a stripping basket or on the deck of a boat

3. I get the opportunity I have been waiting all day for (albies blow up in front of me, a tarpon finally rolls within casting range etc.)

4. I got to make a cast and since the fly line has been OFF the spool and in my stripping baset, on the ground or on deck of boat etc... It is now VERY dry with salt built up too making it "sticky")

5. I go to fire a nice long cast -- and, yup .. you guessed it .. the fly line forms a nice big birds nest .. the cast goes about 10 feet if at all .. and i spend the next 5 minutes untangling FLY LINE .. and when i finally get it untangled the fish are gone .. way gone

6. So does this happen with the Orvis wonderline - sure it does. BUT, it happens 80% LESS than other lines I have tried

7. I think its because the running line portion of the sinking line is NOT super thin and its coated with some sort of really slippery stuff ... and the thickness and the coating combined make the birds nests happen less often and when they do, infinately easier to get out.
8. Also, I can shoot the stuff a mile

kory_k · Location: New York, NY

This post is interesting as it brings out many more questions (most posts tend to do that which is why we all read them, right?) One of the biggest is brought up by the posts by chromefinder and Jeremy; What are you using the sinking line for?

Jeremy talks about saltwater applications, and chromefinder talks about stillwater. Two very different fishing applications. This is one thing to consider. Are you fishing stripers in deep water? Are you fishing shallow weed beds in lakes? What is the primary use going to be?

Next I would consider if you are using it in warmer or colder conditions almost the most important factor. The best sinking line for tarpon in extreme heat is very different than the best sinking line for steelhead in ice cold water. You and jeremy both talk about having problems with "memory" in the line. Coatings are important in regard to this, but the most important factor is the core of the fly line. For hot weather, a stiff core made from monofilimanent or similar material is best. For cold weather, more supple cores are necessary. I have found the best cores for a range of temperatures hot to cool (not cold) conditions to be braided cores. What temperature range will you typically be fishing it in?

Then I would determine how fast you want it to sink. This is determined by both the depth of the water you are fishing and the speed of the current that you primarily will be fishing it in.

After you answer these questions, you will narrow down a few things and I can give you a better answer.
-Kory

jeremy · Location: Portland, Maine

Kory,

That is an interesting point you make .. I would say that in general I am using the line less for its "sinking" ability and more for its "shootability" and mostly in northeast waters .. but, often "northeast" doesn't mean cold .. as water temps in Rhode Island where I do alot of fishing can often be 70 degrees and air temps 80-90's (so no 'cold' water) by any means. I also use the line because whether fishing from boat or from "the wall" (which is a big jetty) that is high above the water .. the sinking line compensates for the hight at which I am at - and enables the fly to get just below the surface. So, definately not fishing "deep" most times just below the surface, even though its a sinking line .. Let me know. Thanks.

lunchbox · Location: Utah

Jeremy, I hear ya on the Orvis lines. Most of the lines I use for guiding have the wonderline3 and memory is a huge factor, just as in the other two series of wonderlines. Just as Kory says, the biggest difference is the core material whether it be mulifilament (trout, cooler water) or monofilament (salt, flats, warm temperatures). The coating is very stiff on the Orvis despite it being a multifilament line.

For most trout fishing it is a bad thing but the advantage a stiffer line has is that it shoots much better, if you can avoid tangling it. The softer, more supple line causes friction and drag in the rod guides, causing a reduction in casting distance. The key is finding a line that shoots well and doesn't tangle too bad. This may vary by time of the year that you are fishing.

If it is a sinking tip line you are looking for, the SA Streamer Express sink tip lines throw very much like a shooting head without the problems with running lines. They come in grains (200-450gr) instead of specified line weights. The head is 30'. With the intermediate running lines, the head is able to get down much quicke and stay downwhere a line with a floating running line wants to "lift" the sinking head while retrieving. Matched with the right rod, it is surprisingly easy to throw the entire line with a fly attached with just one false cast.

jeremy · Location: Portland, Maine

Lunchbox,

Man, incredible information. I was talking to Kory recently and something came to light, and its really kind of funny. The reason I don't know much about the guiding business (per the other tipping guide discussion) is because I truly DON'T. I also am a terrible fly tier (I kid you not) - I don't tie flies I buy flies (its a time issue) and to be honest anything more than a glo bug, I'm outta the game. And then gear, I honestly know NOTHING about lines and reels and rods or any of this stuff. Now here is what is interesting. I do believe that the 1 thing I am good at is FINDING and CATCHING fish. Those are my only 2 skill, really - and I think it is directly correlated to my life long total obsession with fishing .. and NOT just fishing as a past time - but, I am talking serious addiction since as early as I can remember. Now, my addiction was growing thin after many years of spin fishing, trolling and even commercial fishing (30 days fishing at a time, setting 1,200 hooks per night for swordfish, tuna and mako shark. for money. perfect storm stuff, ya know). Anyway, I fished for fun - I fished for money - caught a literally TONS and TONS of fish (per trip:). Then, I woke up one day and said, "I'm done .. I don't like fishing anymore. After doing it commercially and for work and for money .. let's say .. it lost its charm. And, I realized that I definately wanted to not spend my entire life at sea fishing for a living and pursued another career path. Then, I found fly fishing. And WHAM! I was right back to where I was when I was 7 years old. I knew nothing. Trout fishing was foreign to me and I could not understand why the trout were rising and I couldn't catch them. I then entered an entirely new world of fly fishing in both fresh and saltwater and to this day I still love it and am still learning all the time. I learned all on my own and basically all of my casting and everything was learned by less of a "want to" and more of a "need to" .. Based on my "fishing" nature of NEEDING to find and catch fish - that did not change just because I was fly fishing. If anything, it only intensified. So, pretty much everything I know to date is grounded in the best way that I taught myself (with a few pointers here and there from friends and folks I met on the water) to FIND and CATCH fish. Now, as this site as grown .. I have become friends with so many people, like yourself and kory and dave and boz and austin and ed and joey and soooo many others that actually DO know about guiding, they are killer fly tiers, they actually do know about they dynamics of casting and all sorts of stuff about gear and leaders and setups and all of this stuff .. Now, anyone that fishes with me, can attest to the fact that I am always taking their flies (cuz I can't tie them) .. I fish straight leader always (even when dry fly fishing) Not long ago, I would actually buy a huge spool of 5 pound test stren fishing line and use that all season for everything trout related. Fly line to stren to fly, done. For saltwater I would by a huge spool of regular 20 pound test stren fishing line. fly line, to stren to fly, done. i really only relied on 1 fly for steelhead. eggs worked, no sense using anything else. albies eat olive epoxies always, thats all i use. stripers eat black clousers all day, finished. all trout eat pheasent tails of various sizes, good enough for me. olive conehead wooly bugger will catch just about anything, sounds great. white deceiver in saltwater, all i need... you get the point. and my point here is ... as i evolve it is HILARIOUS how BASE and RIDICULOUSLY simple i tried to make things. I had to - after all, i had no F***** clue what i was doing. So, find a cast that works and don't do anything else. find a fly that works for a certain fish and don't think anymore. After all, the goal for me was always and might always be finding and catching fish - after all, that is really my only skill. So, what is really interesting to me .. and I say this in the most humble way .. is that, I did pretty good out there I found and caught a lot of fish of all kinds of species on flies .. but like most things in my life .. i did it 'the hard way' and totally backwards ... and now that I am friends with all you guys and such well rounded fly fisherman .. its sometimes kind of embarrasing, but mostly kind of funny .. how VERY LITTLE I actually know .. and to learn and start to understand these things after all the whacky ways I have done things to date (and often still do) .. its incredibly interesting because when you explain "sinking fly lines" like you just did .. i am like "WOW, that makes sense .. I wish I knew that before! .. I didn't even know there was a core of a fly line .. infact, I never even though much about fly line at all .. and that's evident in the fact that sometimes i use the same line for 2 or 3 years straight .. until it gets so cracked and corroded that it actually breaks .. in which case i splice it with a surgeons knot (the only knot i know) and continue fishing the day and get another fly line later. So, I never thought I would be a "gear junky" or anything like that .. or even want to know about all of the gear and technical things .. but, as of lately .. I find it more and more interesting because the more I learn about the more refined things of fly line and rods and reels and all of this stuff, at this stage of my fly fishing journey, the more i am able to relate it to the next evolution of helping me achieve my goal of FINDING and CATCHING more fish ... and i think that why for the last 12 years or so that I have been fly fishing ... topics like this didn't interest me or i didn't care .. because I had much bigger issues relating to meeting my goal of finding and catching fish than "type of fly line" .. meaning I had no clue how to search out and find a steelhead or how to even comprehend nymphing or understand albies or how to confidently fly fish dry flies to very selective trout ... i lacked the understanding of these fundamental concepts of fly fishing .. so, for me, i think .. until i felt that i at least understood steelhead (to some degree .. and i will always be learning) than focusing on the line and rod and all that stuff made no sense... But now, that I have an ok understanding of the concepts of the fish and how and WHY they feed on fly patterns .. I think I am entering into another world of fly fishing where its all new again .. and where the more "refined" things such as this discussion .. make MUCH more sense .. and actually interest me greatly ...

thanks for all your help and sharing the stuff you know --- but that still doesn't mean when we go fishing, i am not gonna use your flies and obsess like a crazed fish-aholic over FINDING and CATCHING fish. when i get on the water, i am sometimes embarrased, but the fish just do something to me .. and i just gotta find em' and gotta catch em' no matter how hard it is .. where they might take me .. or what i have to do .. but, i guess .. that's just me and maybe always will be --- but now i see all this stuff i am learning from all you guys -- as a way to do it better and more effeciently and effectively -- thanks man!

kory_k · Location: New York, NY

I understand completely as I have been obsessed to an almost obscene degree my entire life. I fished every chance I got, riding my bike up the canyon to find trout in a small stream, getting dropped off to go backpacking for the weekend with friends, getting my dad to gear every weekend trip to a fishing destination, teaching all of my friends that had never heard about flyfishing to fish so I had someone to go with and so on.
I learned how to fly fish at age 7 with a rod that my dad had that didn't even have a name on it. The flies I used were whatever looked cool tied to whatever line was already on the reel which was a pflueger. As time went on, my next rod was a $35 berkely that came in a plastic tube, when I broke it I threw it away and bought a new one. Eventually, one christmas in high school I got a Sage Blank and built that rod. It was a 9 foot 6 weight RP (the model before the RPL). I used that rod for everything including small streams since it was what I had and i really didn't care or know any better.

As time went on I learned about lighter weights and got interested, but still could care less about fly lines and I typically bought one leader for the year and just tied tippet on as needed. I used a cortland for years, the model recommended by the guy in the shop where i bought it, just because it was what i could afford and it worked, the only thing i debated over was the color. I would typically use that line for several years until there were literally huge gaps in the coating and pieces falling off. It was kind of a sinking floating line, but i didn't care, it worked.

I started guiding at 18 and worked for a few different outfitters & shops and started to hear about the sage sp or the winston IM6 that they told me I HAD to have. I eventually and reluctantly bought an sp through the guide program and still felt like it was a lot of money and didn't know what the difference really could be. It just needed to cast my line and everything i used to that point worked, why did i need this? When I got the rod I took my pflueger in and had them put a line on it. The guys in the shop gave me so much s*** for putting a $25 reel on a $500 rod, but i could care less and i fished it that way for years and again it worked. The rod however, was awesome and it opened my eyes to how a nice tool "enhanced" my experience. I didn't catch any more fish of course but the new rod casted so smoothly and the fly landed softly etc. and I actually took a lot of enjoyment in just fishing it.

After years of guiding, I eventually started actually working in the flyshops and really learning the intracicies of the equipment even down to the tippet and type of hook and started experimenting and using all of these things. I realized that every little thing enhanced my experience and actually made a difference in my presentation, casting effort etc.

Again, I still believe that you can catch just as many fish without ever worrying about most of this. Then, you learn and get better, just like jeremy said, and you understand the fish and the environment and all of the variables that do matter. Then you appreciate and you realize that you can get a line or leader or whatever that is specifically designed for the type of fishing you are doing, and you can really enhance and expand on your experiences.