Fly Fishing

Shaq

Jeremy and I were on the live chat last night trying to clear up a few misconceptions which grew from all our interests is spey. This is a good thing and I thought I would put it into a rambling for today.

OK, let’s talk about the casts and the practical applications of those. I won’t go into the how-to because of the obstacles, which arise when reading something instead of actually seeing it. I will try and get some casts on video for Jeremy to post. For reference, we will pretend that we are standing in the middle of the river looking downstream. River right is on our right and left is on the left…OK.

On River right, the current is moving from our left (upstream) and moving past us to the right (Downstream). This means that the line is on our right hanging straight down. For a right handed caster, our rod is in our right hand (Left handers will have to do the opposite as the rod is in the left and the line is draped across your body in front). Back to right handers. There are two casts which you can do here. One is the double, where the line is positioned in front of us to the anchor position by a sweep of the rod across the body, then into the cast. The other is a circle spey which positions the line into the anchor position by a circle motion of the rod tip. So while the line and rod are positioned downstream on the same side of the body, the effect is that the line and rod, stays on that side, out of the way and does not create a noose around the neck.

On River Left, the line (For right handers) is positioned to the left of us, and the rod is in the right hand. When we follow the swing, our hips move downstream and the rod now is pointing across our body. The hands are crossed in front of us. To position the line to an anchor position, we must uncross our hands, turn our hips and bring our right hand to our right ear. This is the single spey and the hip movements (moving the torso to face the opposite bank) create the cast direction and d-loop. You can also use a snap-T cast to position the line.

For more on casting, either get the vids or stay tuned until I get my lazy butt to the river and film…my casts not my butt.

These casts are typically defined by the direction of the currents and which side of your body the line is on when the swing is finished. I have taken the “greatest hits” from our live chat last night and put them at tge end of this rambling because I think it will clear some things up. When watching instructional vids, always remember that these casts are not done in a vacuum but are for practical applications and should be used to solve problems and situations on the river. Moving a fly from straight downstream, using the currents as an anchor and sending the fly to a new position for the swing and hopefully the hook-up.

Here is the conversation that Jeremy and I had last night, You have to read from the bottom up.

great .. this just cleared alot of things up for me! gotta run .. thanks so much shaq .. big help!
08 Nov 06 - 19:27 > Shaq: when I just watched that and say him position the cast, I knew exactly why you weren't seeing it
08 Nov 06 - 19:25 > Shaq: bingo!!!!!! DING DING!!!
08 Nov 06 - 19:24 > Shaq: see that's why you were confused. he showed you the casts from the same side...
08 Nov 06 - 19:24 > jeremy: right???
08 Nov 06 - 19:23 > jeremy: hence .. we have come full circle to the original quesiton about the single spey cast.
08 Nov 06 - 19:23 > Shaq: so if the current was going the other way, the line would be on that side naturally
08 Nov 06 - 19:23 > jeremy: ahhh haaa
08 Nov 06 - 19:23 > Shaq: no it's defined by which side of your body the line is on
08 Nov 06 - 19:22 > jeremy: oh really? so ... the circle cast is not defind by the origin of the line being upstream from you???
08 Nov 06 - 19:22 > Shaq: if he didn't position the lne upstream, his body would be in the way
08 Nov 06 - 19:21 > Shaq: If the line was downstream of him and he was facing the other way, he wouldn't have to position the line
08 Nov 06 - 19:21 > jeremy: the circle cast can be done with line startng from downstream??
08 Nov 06 - 19:20 > jeremy: now you lost me..
08 Nov 06 - 19:20 > Shaq: what he should have done, is turn around and show you the cast from square one. Since that cast should be done from the other current direction
08 Nov 06 - 19:19 > jeremy: cuz there is no way that naturally the line will be upstream
08 Nov 06 - 19:19 > jeremy: yup .. so we are saying the same thing
08 Nov 06 - 19:18 > jeremy: i know what your gonna say .. "he throws it upstream"
08 Nov 06 - 19:18 > Shaq: he positions the line upstream of him, so he can do the cast
08 Nov 06 - 19:18 > jeremy: yah
08 Nov 06 - 19:18 > jeremy: yah .. go ahead
08 Nov 06 - 19:18 > Shaq: do you see when he shows you the circle?
08 Nov 06 - 19:17 > Shaq: mikes video
08 Nov 06 - 19:17 > Shaq: I think so
08 Nov 06 - 19:15 > jeremy: we are saying the same thing
08 Nov 06 - 19:15 > jeremy: exactly
08 Nov 06 - 19:14 > Shaq: It's kinda like when you start out. strip the line out, shake it outa the tip and roll it out to set up the cast then go into it
08 Nov 06 - 19:14 > jeremy: hmmm .. i will have to ask him .. i interpreted it like .. if the water is slow .. you will have to do a cast of some kind to get the line where it needs to be in order to do a double spey cast ..
08 Nov 06 - 19:13 > Shaq: sort of.
08 Nov 06 - 19:13 > Shaq: if you look at the vid of jim rusher on m,ike's site. he does the exact same thing for the single. positionsd the line to make it easy to do the cast
08 Nov 06 - 19:12 > jeremy: ex. roll cast+ switch cast+ double spey = 1 cast
08 Nov 06 - 19:11 > Shaq: I think what he was talking about was that in the vid of you and austin, you would position the cast in front of you then hit the real cast. This was just because you had the wrong current direction for the casts
08 Nov 06 - 19:10 > jeremy: ok .. so .. slow moving water.. same question?
08 Nov 06 - 19:10 > jeremy: is it safe to say that a couple of casts might be used as preliminary casts in order to get the line where it needs to be to do the "grand finale" cast?
08 Nov 06 - 19:10 > Shaq: I don't know much about that. All my applications are for moving water.
08 Nov 06 - 19:09 > jeremy: lets take still water spey casting for example
08 Nov 06 - 19:09 > jeremy: mike mentioned "re-positioning casts"
08 Nov 06 - 19:09 > Shaq: go
08 Nov 06 - 19:08 > jeremy: so .. i got one final question for tonights spey school.. ready ..
08 Nov 06 - 19:07 > Shaq: switch casts are really good for casting indicators and split shot because the shot doesn't have a chance to sink...just touch and go...we call it the Salmon river snap
08 Nov 06 - 19:06 > jeremy: ps.. the switch cast is cool ... especially on a single handed rod .. i like those "touch and go" casts .. maybe on practical for re-positioning .. but the look and feel cool though ..
08 Nov 06 - 19:04 > jeremy: i was infact having trouble seeing the difference between a switch cast and single spey cast .. but now i see
08 Nov 06 - 19:04 > jeremy: yes, now i get it .. and mikes comment now makes perfect sense
08 Nov 06 - 18:57 > Shaq: the double is great because it is used for the correct application. Mike had trouble Seeing the single because it was from the wrong side
08 Nov 06 - 18:55 > jeremy: one sec.. let me look
08 Nov 06 - 18:54 > Shaq: this makes the anchor weak
08 Nov 06 - 18:54 > Shaq: I just watched the sample vids again. DO you see how you were trying to single with the current the wrong way and it sent the anchor to the wrong position? meaning it kept moving towards you
08 Nov 06 - 18:45 > jeremy: i can see why, for effeciency purposes, that it makes sense for single spey cast when river running right to left and double spey cast when rive running left to right .. why swith hands and excert that energy and do that work if you don't have to .. that makes sense to me

Shaq: do you see why, on the other side, that cast would be hard?
08 Nov 06 - 18:34 >
jeremy: just watched your spey video .. at 45 secs.. i see the single spey cast http://www.fliesandfins.com/fishvideos/shaqspey.wmv .. and i see exactly what you mean by "shallow saucer" .. makes perfect sense .. and now i see the difference between a single spey cast and a plain old roll cast .. subtle, but much different.. the devil is in the details..
08 Nov 06 - 18:32 > jeremy: SHAQ -- i got it ..!
08 Nov 06 - 18:02 > Shaq: right now...
08 Nov 06 - 17:59 > Shaq: otherwise too much line will still be hanging downstream in the current to form an effective d-loop
08 Nov 06 - 17:59 > Shaq: If you have a long line and a heavy tip, the hips will play a major roll in positioning the line for a proper anchor
08 Nov 06 - 17:58 > Shaq: third...wow the water was low then
08 Nov 06 - 17:57 > Shaq: two thing, I don't turn my hips too much in that vid, and the double taper line I was using dips mid cast
08 Nov 06 - 17:55 > jeremy: so ... i am learnng that the hips play a huge roll .. as much as the anchor points
08 Nov 06 - 17:54 > jeremy: gonna look at that now ..
08 Nov 06 - 17:54 > Shaq: check the pink floyd vid, I do a decent single on it
08 Nov 06 - 17:52 > Shaq: snap down with the bottom hand and send the line to oblivion
08 Nov 06 - 17:52 > Shaq: uncross the arms and turn the hips toi the 10 oclock position...or your right hand is at the right ear
08 Nov 06 - 17:51 > Shaq: is paralell with the water
08 Nov 06 - 17:51 > jeremy: so this sounds stupid .. but will clear things up for me ..
08 Nov 06 - 17:51 > Shaq: at the end, lift the rod so it
08 Nov 06 - 17:51 > Shaq: follow the swing with the tip of the rod
08 Nov 06 - 17:50 > Shaq: fly swings down
08 Nov 06 - 17:50 > Shaq: summary
08 Nov 06 - 17:49 > Shaq: that should be a smooth motion accelerating to a stop just like a single handed back-cast
08 Nov 06 - 17:48 > jeremy: got it
08 Nov 06 - 17:47 > Shaq: when you turnm your hips and bring hands to 10 oclock, a d-loop will form loading the rod
08 Nov 06 - 17:47 > jeremy: ok .. soo .. at this point .. no D loop behind me??
08 Nov 06 - 17:46 > Shaq: powerstroke forward with a snapping of the bottom hand...top hand acts as a pivet
08 Nov 06 - 17:46 > jeremy: yup
08 Nov 06 - 17:46 > Shaq: rod tip at the 10 oclock position
08 Nov 06 - 17:46 > jeremy: got it so far
08 Nov 06 - 17:46 > Shaq: while the arms are uncrossing, turn the hips to position yourself facing across stream
08 Nov 06 - 17:45 > Shaq: bring the rod tip across the body uncrossing arms tip of rod should have a shallow saucer effect
08 Nov 06 - 17:44 > Shaq: lift rod
08 Nov 06 - 17:44 > jeremy: yup
08 Nov 06 - 17:44 > Shaq: arms are crossed
08 Nov 06 - 17:44 > jeremy: yup
08 Nov 06 - 17:43 > jeremy: yup
08 Nov 06 - 17:43 > Shaq: left hand on bottom of rod, right on top
08 Nov 06 - 17:43 > Shaq: rod is in the right hand pointing across body
08 Nov 06 - 17:43 > jeremy: line is dowstream on left side of me rod pointing downstream
08 Nov 06 - 17:42 > Shaq: that's from the road side of paradise. Check out the single spey. water moving right to left
08 Nov 06 - 17:42 > jeremy: now .. we go to the other side of the river
08 Nov 06 - 17:42 > Shaq: look at the pink floyd vid
08 Nov 06 - 17:41 > jeremy: got it
08 Nov 06 - 17:41 > Shaq: yes, double...
08 Nov 06 - 17:41 > jeremy: you suggest the double spey cast .. correct?
08 Nov 06 - 17:40 > Shaq: ok
08 Nov 06 - 17:40 > jeremy: lets say we were standing on the side of the river i saw you on the other day ..
08 Nov 06 - 17:40 > jeremy: sorry dude .. i was mixing up left to right and right to left
08 Nov 06 - 17:39 > Shaq: line is draped in front of you
08 Nov 06 - 17:39 > Shaq: lift the rod...bring it across the body to the left shoulder
08 Nov 06 - 17:39 > jeremy: sto
08 Nov 06 - 17:38 > Shaq: double spey set-up.
08 Nov 06 - 17:38 > Shaq: line and rod are on the downstream side...the right side of the body
08 Nov 06 - 17:37 > jeremy: take it from there .. i am getting confused with the switch cast and the single spey ..
08 Nov 06 - 17:37 > jeremy: my line is tight down stream ..
08 Nov 06 - 17:37 > jeremy: water is moving left to right
08 Nov 06 - 17:37 > jeremy: ok so lets take the right to left approach
08 Nov 06 - 17:36 > Shaq: from right to left, the single
08 Nov 06 - 17:35 > Shaq: I believe that is the case. for a right hander with current going left to right, the double is the easiest cast
08 Nov 06 - 17:34 > Shaq: So like a basebal swing, not only will you have to move the hands, you have to reverse the body english which confounds the revers casting
08 Nov 06 - 17:33 > jeremy: really ... ???? so, you would say that most spey guys only use a single spey cast when the river downstream is on their right side??
08 Nov 06 - 17:33 > Shaq: top hand to bottom and vice versa. Here is the rub when spey casting with the 2 hander, the hips are involved in a turn away from the current to set the powerstroke up
equating it to "side of river" .. i would think that all casts could be done from either side of river.. just switch hands and reverse the motions??? no??

mike holt · Newbie Joined: Jun 26, 2003 Posts: 17

Shaq,
I've lost ya somewhere along the line. My understanding is the WIND is what decides between a single or double spey cast. Not the water flow.

If I'm standing on the right bank with the line hanging downstream and the wind blowing downstream I'm going to do a double spey (right hand up).

If the wind swings around and starts blowing upstream I'm switching to a single spey (left hand up).

If I cross the river and prepare to cast - wind still blowing upstream - I'm still going to do a Single Spey (right hand up).

If the wind swings around and blows downstream I'm going to do a double spey (left hand up).

Shaq · Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject:

yes Mike that is how we are taught. It is my suggestion that a circle, snake roll or other touch and go cast would be better in the wind and that learning an opposite handed single cast is harder. It's kinda like a right hander trying to hit a baseball left handed. Not only do you have to learn the hand movements but also which foot to put forward and such,. To learn a back-handed single spey, you have to rotate the hips and use the opposite hand as a pivet. For those just struggling with spey casting for the first time, I find it most easy to tell them river right, double...river left single. I find many spey castign videos try and send the beginner out there with to much info. Just becasue they have been flyfishing for 10 years means that learnign to spey cast is actually HARDER than it was learning to single hand cast. Just trying to get them to NOT use their primary hand to make the cast is hard. Would you take a person buying their first single hander out in back of the shop and show them the reach, steaple and pile cast? No, you show them the overhand and roll and basically tell them that they will encounter 2 situations. Room for a cast and no room for a cast. Then after they get their feet wet, catch a few fish and feel good about themselves, show them how to do those other casts. Does that make sense? Just send the beginner out the first time with enough info to be dangerous and they will be much happier inmy experience...Love to hear your thoughts.

jeremy · Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: helps

mike --- that helps ... because, for me, it was a little constricting and possible dangerous Very Happy

to think of things from the perspective of "if river flowing this way than these casts and if river flowing that way than those casts" ..... it is liberating to think of things from the "wind" perspective and know that these casts can be done regardless of which way the river is flowing ..... also, in doing research and talking with guys like mike, shaq, jason and listening to a bunch of other long time spey casters there seems to be one thing that i keep hearing that appeals to me .... there are really no rules ... if there were that would be kinda boring ... like music or anything else there are common guidelines that makes sense ... but there is MUCH room for improvisation and personal interpretation ... THANK GOD ... cus it wouldn't be much fun for me if it were an exact science with all sorts of crazy rules that must be followed ... like music, i like to understand the theory, but then apply my own improvisation and creativity ... and i have heard many of the great spey casters say something like "once you understand the dynamics ... make up your own casts ... many of the casts we use have no names" ... that is what intrigues me .... i am not so interested in doing things exactly by the book .... more interested in understanding the book and then writing my own book ... i'm getting there ...

ps. stay tuned .. next week .. mike is going to help me (and you through video) pick out and cast a spey rod to meet some bigger water applications ... he will help me to compare and contrast the reasons why i might want a 12.6 rod versus a 14 foot rod .. depending on where i will be using it and what i plan on using for line (sinking lines or just floating line with various sink tips) and what size flies (spey flies or big heavy striper flies) ..... we will also be going through some casts with the two handed rod and probably for simplicity sake ... cover, in more detail, (snap t, double spey, single spey, snake roll, switch cast and circle spey) from still water applications to river applications where river is running right to left and left to right ... so .. stay tuned for that video coming next week ...

ps .. hey jason .. you steelhead guys out west should share with us via video some of the techniques, rod, setups and casts you use in idaho, bc etc..... will be cool to have all of these different people collectively providing their insight and their interpretations/perceptions ... that, i think, will really set the stage for understanding the "rules" and open up windows of opportunity for logical and practical improvisation... thanks.

mike holt · Newbie Joined: Jun 26, 2003 Posts: 17

Shaq,
I’m hesitant to tell someone that they should only use a double spey – river right because if the wind comes upstream and that fly is placed correctly when the cast forms a downstream anchor and they roll it out the wind may blow it into them.

Same thing if they are river left with a downstream wind and a single spey – if they bring the fly upstream of them and the anchor placement is correct (upstream) for a forward stroke that fly may well blow into them.

I agree it’s hard for some to learn to spey with the off-hand and for those who are struggling with using their off hand I tell them to use their dominate hand and cross body cast (not as hard as it sounds and not as hard as learning to use the off-hand).

For example: Standing river right – upstream wind – only knowing single and double spey casting strokes – two handed rod here’s what I suggest people do. Using the right hand on top, raise the rod, lifting the line, begin your upstream stoke with the rod and end the stroke with your fly anchored upstream of you and your right hand up over the left shoulder. Then make your forward stroke - if the wind takes the fly it will take the fly away from you not into you.

Clear as mud right? But it works.

Here’s what Simon Gawesworth says about it in his book “Spey Casting”

“LEFT HAND OR RIGHT HAND – The biggest safety issue in spey casting is to make sure the line is always on the downwind side of your body as you start the forward cast. This will keep the wind from blowing the line (and fly!) into you. If you are a right-handed caster and the wind is blowing on your right-hand side, it can be very tempting to use only the right hand and try casting off the left shoulder, with the right hand still up. Those who are strongly right-handed will find starting with the left hand up very awkward and clumsy and only through persistent practice will the left-hand approach feel reasonably comfortable. I should know. I was right-hand dominate as a beginning spey caster (and single-handed caster), but then, in the late ‘80s I forced myself to stick to the left hand. I made myself use it one whole year – whether I was using a salmon rod or single-handed rod, and whether I needed to or not. This was a hard task and a hard year, though gradually I started to improve my left-handed casting and now I am about 80 percent skilled with my left hand as with my right.

Some casters I have met are naturally ambidextrous and can cast equally well off either arm. These people are rare. Most of us must dedicate ourselves to lots of practice to make the left-handed cast work. There are plenty of good casters that cast backhanded or cackhanded in spey casting terms – that is using the right hand up over the left shoulder (or left hand up over the right shoulder). This can work for many casters and does present an option when there is a strong wind on the right-hand side. I believe that this is a less effective method than switching to the left hand up. Body dynamics dictate that you will get better distance, speed, and accuracy without crossing your body with your arms. “
End of quote.

Shaq · Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject:

Jeremy, that is the beuaty of all fishing!!! and why I do it different than the next guy...of course we are wearing different hats too.

Mike,
I see what you are saying...I am going to try it...I have Simon's video and I just ignored that part and in four years I may have encountered wind enough to hamper casting 2 or 3 times even on the great lakes tribs. However, being an addicted newbie, I should try and learn the cackhanded casts. Of course there are people looking at me wierd at work as I motion with my hand. How often do you find yourself switching the hands to the single rather than performing the double. I guess I was coming at it from a calm day situation.

jason-c · Newbie Joined: Apr 02, 2004 Posts: 101

Good point about the wind. To put it simply; You never want to be down wind from you D loop/Anchor. You also never want to set your anchor directly in front of you. Unless, as some once told me, "you want your rear and face to look like a dart board".

mike holt · Newbie Joined: Jun 26, 2003 Posts: 17

Shaq,
I had to laugh when you mentioned people looking at you funny when you're making motions with your hands. I get some stange looks also. I'll be standing around thinking about a cast and the next thing I know I've got two empty hands swinging around making a forward stroke - Embarassed

then I realize people are watching

I find myself changing top hands often. At first it was odd but now I sometimes don't even realize it when I change.

It only took one Size 3, Spey Fly (nice Alex Jackson hook) in the forehead to make me start switching whenever the wind shifts - even slightly. (only time in 25 years or so I've ever hooked myself and I don't want to do it again - glad I bend my barbs) Smile

Jason-c, You're sure right about never setting an anchor right in front of you. If I overpower the start of a double spey it's like the robot from "Lost in Space" is looking on going Danger - Danger Will Robinson"

Shaq · Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject:

I was right-hand dominate as a beginning spey caster (and single-handed caster), but then, in the late ‘80s I forced myself to stick to the left hand. I made myself use it one whole year – whether I was using a salmon rod or single-handed rod, and whether I needed to or not. This was a hard task and a hard year, though gradually I started to improve my left-handed casting and now I am about 80 percent skilled with my left hand as with my right

This is almost exactly my point. TAking a beginer and telling him on day one that you can do it the other way too, takes a leap of faith. and can sometime confuse. Simon had trouble with it. I am, going to watch Simon's vid tonight again and I can't wait to get on the water. I wonder if we posted this over on Simon "Outdoor's Best" spey board if he would stroll over here and give us some insight.

JAson, great point. You also don't want to stand slight downstream and behind a person demonstartigna double spey....Ask Jeremy. Embarassed

DAnger Jeremy Danger!!! Cool

Sorry I missed your tour of duty in our tribs. Heard you had some great times!!!

jason-c · Newbie Joined: Apr 02, 2004 Posts: 101

Next time. It is nice to see everyone getting into the spey. It is actually a nice way to share the water too! Cast and step down!