Joined: May 15, 2003 Posts: 817 Location: Portland, Maine
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: Spey Rods - A Good Tool.. But Just Another Club In My Bag
So, I have been throwing around the spey rod and learning the casts and having a blast ... I am fortunate enough to have a few big sea run rivers within a couple miles of my house here in maine ... during the fall and winter and early spring i like to spend my time fly fishing for sea run brown trout .... it is a goal of mine to get a 5-10 pound chrome sea run brown trout ... they are here .. i have seen them and seen pictures of these beautiful fish and joe-m and others have caught some beauties that would hold a candle to any steelhead or atlantic salmon ... and any fish with sea lice interests me ... It is a tough game though .. and hard core to say the least ... it is a tidal game and when and where to fish is dependant on many tidal factors .. and we get some big tides here in maine 10 feet or so is common .... So, I have had this discussion with many long time spey guys and I keep getting the same answer from them and keep coming to the same conclusion myself:
Personal Observation: Spey casting can be done on a single handed rod. I love the spey casting just like i like the many roll casts and overhand casts associated with fly fishing and especially love the essence and mechanics of all types of casts .. even the casts that have no name, that i have developed through my own style and i'm not sure if anyone else does them or not, and not sure nor do i care if they are "right" or not ... because the work for me and fly fishing, for me, is less about rules and more about fun and a creative outlet .... regardless of single or double handed rod ... it is the essence and mechanics of the all fly casts that interest me....
Personal Observation: Swinging flies is one of the most common methods of fly fishing here in Maine ... With Landlocked Salmon and Brook Trout being our primary fish and smelt being a major food source, it's no wonder why swinging streamers is the status quo. Our fishery is very conducive to streamer fishing and sinking lines .. So, a large part of my time fly fishing is spent swinging flies with all different granes of sinking lines, shooting heads, lead-core extensions and floating and intermediate lines ....
Personal Observation: To be honest ... I get kinda sick of swinging flies and swinging streamers ... and I jones to nymph fish ... When I go out west I love to indicator fish .. becasue although it is an effective method here in maine .. indicator and nymph fishing is many times less productive than swinging streamer patterns or even dry fly fishing .... So, when I go out west or steelhead fishing in great lakes or when fall cames in Maine and the salmon/trout ARE on nymphs ... I LOVE to nymph ..
Personal Observation: So lately I have been toying around with spey rods ... and, I gotta be honest ... here is my personal take on it. If the spey casts themselves can be done on a single handed rod and the same exact swinging techniques and can be done and are done on a single handed rod ... than why would I use a spey rod unless it gave me absolute advantage? I won't.
Bottom Line: If I really boil it all down .. the only difference between a single handed rod and a double handed rod is length. All spey casts can be done on both single and double handed rods, all of the same fly fishing methods can, of course, be done on both and all of the relative floating, intermediate and variations of sinking lines and sinking line connectors can be used on both. So, what's the difference? NOTHING, but length of rod. After all, the spey rod was invented on the river spey to fulfill a need. The river had steep banks and brush and it was very wide ... and in order to fish that specific river effectively ... the spey rod was created ... not rocket science really... just a longer fly rod. So, I have had this discussion with many spey fishermen here in maine and although they love using the spey rod and use it when appropriate ... they don't use it all the time and at the end of the day they were "fly fishing" ... and many times they never even mention what kind of rod they were using... So, I asked a good friend and long time spey guy his opinion and he said, "Jeremy, the spey rod is a tool ... it makes sense in certain situations but not all .. and many times it can be a disadvantage."
The Real Bottom Line - For Me Anyway: I view fly rods and weights and lengths and every kind of line and all the endless amounts of stuff on the market like golf clubs ... a 6 foot rod has its time and place, a 7 foot rod has its time and place, an 8 foot rod has its time and place, a 9 foot rod has its time and 10, 12, 14, 15, 16 foot rods have their time and place. For me, fly fishing is using the tool that works best for me under any given set of circumstances. Just like golf. I am certainly not going to show up to the golf course with just a driver, or just a sandwedge .. they all have their time and place ... and though the clubs are used to achieve different results ... the same mechanics behind a good golf swing can be applied to each ... So, I do enjoy the spey rod .. just as I enjoy my little 6 foot bamboo stream rod for tiny brooks .. and each have their own intracacies .. but essentially the concepts are the same and spey casts could be used on both. So, I can absolutely appreciate how some guys, for whatever reason .. ONLY choose to fish the spey rods .. and i would never ever knock that .. But, I am not "other guys" I am me .. and as of late .. I have been feeling a bit frustrated because I have been trying to associate this or that kind of fishing with this or that kind of rod .. and that does not make sense to me ... i suppose i could switch entirely to fish the spey rod for steelhead, striped bass, landlocked salmon, brook trout, sea run browns and atlantic salmon .. heck even albies and everything for that matter ... but ya know what? for me, i would not like that... .... i would rather let the elements and rivers and need dictate what type of rod i fish based on my personal preferences and objectives and what makes sense to me ... i can't see fishing a 14 foot rod all the time .. just because ... to me, that does not make sense ... i will fish a 14 foot rod, when it makes sense for me to do so ....
So, this is just a rambling of mine .. and i bet there is nobody even reading at this point .... but, i feel better anyway ... because now i just got it off my chest and i can go back to fly fishing the way i do best and that is without manufacturing my style or gear to fit anybodies elses but my own .... i will continue practicing and enjoying spey casting and look forward to continuing to learn those casts on both single and double handed rods ... i will certainly use spey rods this spring for stripers under certain conditions and maybe even tomorrow evening in my pursuit for a shiny sea run brown ... or maybe i will swing some streamers on a spey rod this spring while steelheading but maybe not ... and if i go out to fish with jason in idaho or bc i will bring a couple single and double handed rods ... and maybe i will fish only double handed out west for steelhead .. or maybe, i will fish the single handed rod and indicator fish at jason's feet while he is making big 100 foot casts .. and catch steelhead at his feet ..... all of that and all of those choices are what make and keep fly fishing fun for me ... for me, it has never been and never will be just this or just that .... it is the totality of it all that i like ...
thanks for listening .. although .. nobody is probably reading anymore .. but this post was more for me than anyone else anyway.... and a way for me to figure out a way that spey makes sense to me ...
Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Posts: 30 Location: capital district NY
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject:
I agree with much of what you say, but there are situation were a spey rod is much more efficent in covering the water. A couple of trips ago SHAQ was using a spey and I was using a 10-7 and he covered the water easily and I jsut couldn't reach it. We were using t-14 and there wasn't enough room to back cast so I was using spey casts but I could only get out so far. I think that like anything else it has its place but it is in my mind vastly more efficient in covering water especially large water than a single hander for swinging flies. When it comes to indi fishing the difference is not as great but with a spey rod one can cast further especially wiht a restricted backcast and mend the line much better. So I want to get one to allow me to fish the SR more effiecntlty, to try other big water like the stripers in the Hudson etc. Does this mean i won't use a single hander no, but I have in mind many places were having one will allow me to effecively fish water that would otherwise be out of my reach. Just my 2 cents.
Joined: May 15, 2003 Posts: 817 Location: Portland, Maine
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: wrh
i agree with you 100% ... and for me it comes down to these scenarios and my logic is as follows::
1. going to river that is huge (hudson river stripers), the river spey etc.. ... ... spey rod all day, makes sense to me.
2. going to a small steelhead trib ... double handed spey rod makes no sense whatsoever to me.. but spey casts on a single handed rod do.
3. going to a river that has primarily water conducive to single handed rod and a small percentage conducive to double handed long rods: single handed makes more sense to me or a some version of a switch rod .. because if i am commited 100% to a double handed long rod and hoping that the few runs that i can effectively fish are not taken up with other double handed long roders .. i am probably setting myself up for a let down because i am reliant on those relatively few spots being available ... and i am constricting my options in relation to the totality of the river and trying to effectively fish water that is more conducive to a single rather than a double handed long rod ..... or going to canada and doing the rotation gig .. which is another scenario all together ....... But i usually look at the bigger picture and if i percieve a river to be primarily suited for a single handed rod based on my single handed overhand, roll and single hand spey casting ability ... i will simply forgoe the fewer instances where a double handed long rod would be more advantageous in return for more instances where a single handed rod would be advantageous ...
4. going to a river that is 50% conducive to double handed rod .. and 50% conducive to single handed: either bring 2 rods and switch depending on how i feel like fishing or if my arms are too tired from single handed overhand casting .. or decide which types of fly fishing i feel like doing and how i might prefer to fish that day ... and what types of water i want to fish most effectively using what methods ......
that's just how i look at it ... but again, its all personal preferance .. and everyone is different ... for example ... i have absolutely no desire at this stage of my life to go to the rivers in canada where pool rotation is the name of the game ... maybe someday that will change .. but as of right now .. that is not my style ... but certainly, other peoples style are in direct contrast to mine .. and they would and do get enjoyment from canadian pool rotation system that takes place on some atlantic salmon rivers .... so, different strokes for different folks ... and maybe someday i will look back and sing an entirely different tune ...maybe not ... who knows ...
Spey rods seem to be extremely popular in the flyfishing world at the moment. And there are some circumstances where those big rod are just the ticket.
For me personally I don't own a Spey rod. Would I like to...Sure. But then again I'd like to have a house full of various rods each one perfectly ideal for fishing a certain spot at a certain level in a specific matter. But the reality for me is that I have a few rods in weights 4-9 that are good "all around work horses" each capable of fishing many different waters utilizing many different techniques. For me and the waters I fish a Spey rod would be the perfect rod maybe 5-10% of the time, so I can't justify spending the dough right now just to have it in my bag. Same goes for say a 2 weight rod for small fish in small streams it sure would be fun too, but I don't fish that type of water enough to justify the purchase. I can think of 3 or four pools on the West Branch where a Spey would be ideal, but thats only a few spots out of hundreds.
However if fishing does become more like golf someday and we find ourselves walking the manicured lawns between pools and runs with our caddys in tow. I may bid you a fair morning as I ask my caddy to kindly prepare my spey for the thick run before me as I puff on my cigar.
Until then, my work horse rods will get it done in fine fashion and if I really need to reach that extra distance to reach those far out fish...I'll probably jump in my raft and row out into the big water to where the fish are, drop anchor and proceed to Slay.
I do enjoy casting those double handers and when folks offer one for me to try I will gladly cast them with a smile.
Hey, I’m with Boz – I want a rod caddy with me on the river.
Jeremy, in general I agree with your thoughts about matching the rod and the water, as part of deciding Spey or no Spey, here’s another angle – Line Control. I know you are familiar with Madison and the water there. Think about the Spring Hole section – the water right out in front of and above the spring. Normally I wade that and use my 8 ½’, 5-weight for whichever method catches me fish – nymphing, swinging, dries and so forth. However, with the recent rains I Spey that section using my 12 ½’, 7-weight Spey (9-weight line).
I went to Madison last week and the water was ripping. I wasn’t wading that – one step from shore and I was knee deep – two steps and I was mid-thigh. I couldn’t even get far enough from shore to do a decent Spey Cast so I used the roll-cast to fish a streamer. I could easily roll 40’ of line and with about a 12’ leader I was working a 50’ swath of river. And, that was enough. Landlocks found my fly.
When I got to a rock outcropping that allowed me to get far enough from shore to form a D-loop behind me I could really reach out but there were few fish out in the middle so swinging out there did me little good. What caught fish was a shorter cast swung down to a seam, pocket or pillow of water formed by the ledges and boulders closer to shore. Since the fish were near shore you might be thinking that I could have reached the fish with a single-handed rod – and you’d be right so why Spey? Line control.
I could reach some of that water with my single-handed rod but the Spey Rod gave me much better line control that it was a no-brainer using the Spey. With the added length of the rod I was able to reach over the slower dragging currents near me or make wicked big upstream mends to slow my fly down as it got to a pocket or cushion of water that I felt held fish. It wasn’t the distance at all that made the Spey Rod work it was the mending.
Joined: Nov 09, 2006 Posts: 25 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:47 am Post subject:
wrh wrote:
I agree with much of what you say, but there are situation were a spey rod is much more efficent in covering the water. A couple of trips ago SHAQ was using a spey and I was using a 10-7 and he covered the water easily and I jsut couldn't reach it. We were using t-14 and there wasn't enough room to back cast so I was using spey casts but I could only get out so far. I think that like anything else it has its place but it is in my mind vastly more efficient in covering water especially large water than a single hander for swinging flies. When it comes to indi fishing the difference is not as great but with a spey rod one can cast further especially wiht a restricted backcast and mend the line much better. So I want to get one to allow me to fish the SR more effiecntlty, to try other big water like the stripers in the Hudson etc. Does this mean i won't use a single hander no, but I have in mind many places were having one will allow me to effecively fish water that would otherwise be out of my reach. Just my 2 cents.
wrh just a side not if you plan on swinging flys with you single handed rod enough you may want a T-8 head its specificaly dsigned for single handed rods. I got some by accident at Whitakers a few weeks ago n the SR.
Joined: May 15, 2003 Posts: 817 Location: Portland, Maine
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: ps ...
mike --- very good point ... and will certainly consider the line control dynamic when calculating my "to spey or not to spey" logic ..... maybe during our next spey lesson we can cover this advantage in more detail ... look forward to it ...
fishgolf - i got your pm and am responding in public so as to clear any misconceptions ... in my post above, i referenced canada's atlantic salmon pool rotation system and it could have been interpreted as though all atlantic salmon rivers are of that nature ... this is definately not so ... there are a few rivers that this pool rotation method is the name of the game .. but LOTS and LOTS of rivers and water where a fly angler is free to fish at his own pace and according to his own style and no pool rotation stuff going on ... so, i just wanted to clarify this so as to not give off the impression or misunderstanding that canada + atlantic salmon = pool rotaion ...... because that is just in certain pools on certain rivers and for anyone conisdering going to canada to atlantic salmon fish with double handed or single handed rods ... there are almost endless possibilities of water and rivers to choose from and certainly fly fishing environs to meet every style ......
the bamboo analogy: ... not to beat a dead horse .. but here is another thing that a friend and i were discussing ... a few years ago there was a big marketing buz about bamboo... everywhere you turned it was bamboo this and bamboo that .. i fell for it ..and got a bamboo rod and fished it with pride and then one day i was fly fishing and i said to myself, "what the hell am i doing?" the only reason why bamboo was used in the first place was because IT WAS THE ONLY THING AVAILABLE ... why don't i go all the way and fish with gut line too ... and then i thought to myself ... "i bet if i went back in time and showed up to a river where everyone was using bamboo rods and gut line .. and i showed up with a new modulus graphite rod and some killer tapered floating lines and integrated sinking lines on spare spools, fishermen would be astounded." of course they would be, that is why bamboo rods went the way of the rotary phone ... it would be foolish to argue the effectiveness and efficiencies of a rotary phone compared to a cell phone ... so my point is this ... i like to see things for what they are ... and a bamboo rod is GREAT if i wish to fly fish and enjoy a day steeped in tradition and feel connected to the history of the sport ... but if i am going fly fishing for lets say stripers or bonefish or steelhead or trout or whatever ... i am using the most effective and effecient tools to meet my objectives .... now, if a friend came out on the striper flats with me and said, "yo, i am only using a bamboo rod and gut line." i would politely say, "wow, that's interesting." but there is no way on earth that i am gonna switch rods with the dude ... but that is just me ... if the bamboo and cat gut line is what satisfied his objectives ... then we would have a great day and both be having fun .. him with the bamboo and cat gut and me with my graphite and depth charge line with spare spools, flurocarbon and modern fly patterns ... and if someone tried to convince me to get rid of my cell phone and go back to a rotary dial phone, it would be a tough sell.... because, logically, based on my objectives .. it wouldn't make much sense to me ... ... but again, just to be clear .. that is just me .. and different strokes for different folks and whatever floats your boat ....
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: Spey Casting and Two Handed rods
I have 2, two handed rods and use them as I do all my other rods, as the water I am fishing dictates. When my shoulder fatigues from casting a one handed rod and there is and there is sufficient water to use a 2 handed rod, I do. Wether I cast the rod over head like a regular rod or use the Spey method or Skaggit method is relavent only to me the river and the fish. I enjoy the slower casting at times and the estetics of the different casting styles. There has been an increase in interest in these big rods for a lot of personal reasons and I suppose some buy them for the same reason people leave the price sticker on there new vehicles for weeks. Some of the latter will end up liking these rods and stick with it, some will use the overhead cast a few times and never touch the rod again. I own 2 rods for what I think are pragmatic reasons and have used one the last few days, succesfully at Madison, high water and deep. The rod allows me to fish when there is no room for backcast on water you can not wade. I was alone on this water one day and the other 2 my friend and his 2 handed rod were with me, no one else there! perfect day.
Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Posts: 30 Location: capital district NY
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject:
SS-280 I love the T-14 and can cast it far enough if I have a backcast. When spey casting with my one hander I can only get about 65-70 feet of line out and in the run we were fishing that was not enough as by the time my line and fly was down deep enougth it was out of the holding water. I don't think T-8 would solve this for me given the situation. For that situation the proper way to fish it is with a spey rod with the T-14. Wathcing the difference bewteen what a one hander could do and what shaq could do with a spey rod in that run sealed the deal as to why I need a spey rod. If I want to swing flies on big water there is no better way than to use a spey rod. If I fished from a boat I wouldn't need to but thats not an option most of the time. That is why I want a spey rod for those situations.
Joined: Nov 14, 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Monmouth, ME
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject:
I've got 2 rods designed for spey style casting, one a 14 foot Loop Black series 9wt that I use for stripers just about everywhere, and a second "switch rod" that can be use double handed or single handed that is 10 1/2 ft, 9/10 wt. That rod is a 4-piece "travel rod" that serves me well for stripers and smaller fish with the benefit of versitility.
Otherwise I'll spey cast my single handed rods in 7, 6 or 4 wt, as necessary to get the job done.
When I took Mike's sponsored class I tried his 15 footer and found it heavy and tiring after a while (but that could be because I was just learning), and I tried his 12 footer, which didn't seem to get me the distance I wanted in the ocean, not that I am that great yet with my longer rod.
Maybe if we do have a Maine clave, we can arrange to try everyone's rods so we can get some variety and feel of different rods -- especially those who haven't spent a fortune on one yet.
Joined: May 15, 2003 Posts: 817 Location: Portland, Maine
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:01 pm Post subject: gunner
gunner .. so you have one of the switch rods ... i gotta be honest .. i am on the verge of buying one ... can you give me some reasons why you like it ???? i am looking for an honest review because .. upon the marketing literature .. this rod does seem to suit my style and what i am looking for in a well rounded application .. but, i have to ask the inevitable .. what does the switch rod give you that a single handed doesn't .. thanks so much...
Joined: Nov 14, 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Monmouth, ME
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject:
The ability to use single or double handed casts. I have a bad back and neck due to multiple motorcycle injuries and casting a single handed rod just wore me out after some time on the water. With a switch rod or a 2 handed rod, I can use both hands, or from either side and give my neck and back a lot of relief.
And when I need to get some good distance with a heavy fly, by using the rod as a 2 hander, I can get some great distance.
Joe
Joined: May 15, 2003 Posts: 817 Location: Portland, Maine
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject: great
great ... just what i needed to hear to justify the purchase ... so would you consider it a good well rounded spey rod ? obviously losing some of the benefits of a 900 yard rod ... but gaining some advantages in terms of mobility and versatility as it relates to a wide range of waters both still and moving and fresh and salt???
maybe the same question twice .. but the 7 weight version of this rod .. does appeal to me .. thanks again..
Joined: Nov 14, 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Monmouth, ME
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject:
I love my switch rod. (I was posting on another thread the link to the site where I had mine made).
A lot of manufacturers are coming out with "trout speys" this and next year.
Doug Moran, one of the guys that took the speycasting class through Mike has a 7 wt trout spey that he loves too; it also was made by Meiser Rods. A great little rod.
I'll send around an email to the group of students/speycasters and tell them of this site and maybe we'll get more input.
Gregb was in one of the classes too and casts a mile.
Joined: May 15, 2003 Posts: 817 Location: Portland, Maine
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: gunner
really ... i like that "trout spey" concept ... especially since it would help me to excercise spey casting in more environs without focusing too much on the size of the rod ... and if i did choose to use a longer double handed for certain applications ... of course, all of the casts that i would be getting proficient with on the "trout spey" would apply to the longer rod ... but same casting dynamics .. regardless of length ... right???? so, i guess that is another question .. it is a good chunk of change .. so , excuse my repetitive questions ... .......... yah, greg b can chuck the line a ways .. big dude . big cast ... i fish with him allot .. maybe we can all get out and fish the kennebec sometime ...
gunner .. check your private messages i sent you one .. they are located above where you signed it .. it will say "private messages" .. thanks. ...
Joined: Nov 14, 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Monmouth, ME
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject:
Once you learn to "spey cast" it can be used on virtually any rod, single or double handed. I haven't used spey casts on anything shorter than 7 1/2 feet, but remember -- a spey cast is really nothing more than a modified roll cast, used where you have little or no backcast room.
Joined: May 15, 2003 Posts: 817 Location: Portland, Maine
Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:00 am Post subject: i like your philosophy
i like your philosophy .. your last post makes perfect sense to me. and i am going to get one of those switch rods ... because i think it fits a little niche that i am looking for in terms of a well rounded spey/double/single handed simple solution ..... i like it .. thanks gunner... we should fish sometime .. where the heck is "Monmouth, ME" .... ... i am from portland maine ... mostly striper fish in the pure salt .. but last season i saw some of the monsters and that reside in the upper stretches of kennebec .. and river fly fishing for the stripers at 6 miles and waterville etc... is something that i will be spending more time pursuing next season ... i love the ocean .. but the rivers add a whole new dynamic .. and MONSTER fish seem to like it in those stretches of the kennebec ... man, i was up there one day and the bait was so thick it was beaching itself on the rocks .... caught tons of stripers swinging pollock flies, decievers etc..... lots of fun .. fast current .. big, strong fish .. what's not to like.... plus its a nice break from getting pounded by the surf
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..... all of that and all of those choices are what make and keep fly fishing fun for me ... for me, it has never been and never will be just this or just that .... it is the totality of it all that i like ...
... but gaining some advantages in terms of mobility and versatility as it relates to a wide range of waters both still and moving and fresh and salt???
